Can i have some advice please? Developing the correct muscles...

[IcarusGirl]

I looked at these photos of Icarus from the end of last summer and one thing i noticed instantly was the rubbish shape of his neck! :sick: It's all underneath muscle and fatty crest, but nothing inbetween! There's nothing in front of his shoulders, can you see what i mean?

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/IcarusGirl/Picture038.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/IcarusGirl/Picture040-1.jpg

(this makes it look worse than it was because he had his head held high, but you can see a real lack of muscles in the right places!)
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/IcarusGirl/Picture013.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/IcarusGirl/Picture017.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/IcarusGirl/Picture1710.jpg

Since the beginning of this year i've been trying to work on it, doing lots of long and low work. He's getting pessoa'ed twice a week and i've been trying to fit in at least one good schooling session and maybe another smaller session after a hack when i can. Am i doing the right things to encourage the muscles to develop?
This was his neck on sunday, can you see any improvement? (i cant, so feel free to say you cant see anything either! :giggles: ) He's running a little light at the moment, but i prefer it that way until the grass has come through, so he doesnt have to be restricted in the summer. :thumbsup:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/IcarusGirl/2010%20onwards/km008.jpghttp://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/IcarusGirl/2010%20onwards/km007.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/IcarusGirl/2010%20onwards/km009.jpg

Do you think i'm doing the right things? Is there anything else you might think about doing? How long do you think it would be before i can see a difference?


(thousands of questions as usual! I'm sorry! :ashamed: )

[Smurf]

I think you need to work on his neck staying relaxed. When it tightens up then they start to develop muscles in the underside of the neck. Lots of long and low exercises, concentrating on the neck being relaxed, streching his topline then as he progresses and the muscle starts to develop then he will be able to carry himself better. This along with flexion ie, when on circles making sure you have the correct flexion, you dont need much imagine your aligning his inside nostril with shoulder. This will also help him develop muscle in the correct places.

[IcarusGirl]

Thanks Perrielee, thats great advice. I've been really trying to keep him relaxed recently, and i think it's working because in the last month or so he's become a lot lighter. He's a stresshead though and if he gets confused he'll scrunch up his neck and brace himself!

[Partner]

Well I have seen much worse!

There are 2 conformational things that I can see. 1) he is deep jowelled and there is not a lot of space between his cheek and the underside of his neck. The saliva gland sits here and in horses built like this it can get in the way of him flexing, especially if he carries his head high. The long and low and pessoa work is the correct way to go with this so you are on the right lines. look at this thread - http://www.equine-world.co.uk/horse-forums/showthread.php?t=10236

The 2nd thing is that he is quite long in the back so may find it harder to get his hind legs really underneath him to lift his shoulder. Instead he will be using his underneath neck muscles to help support his head instead of his shoulder and this can create the overdevelopment. It is difficult to say exactly without seeing him work, but along with what you are already doing I would be trying to get his shoulder more flexible by asking for shoulder in and outside flexion on a circle, and riding the occasional rein back to get him to take more weight behind and lighten the shoulder (make sure you don't then throw the rein at him when you ask him to move forward). Also turn on the forehand will help him soften his flexions (Susan recently posted about TOF so read that post http://www.equine-world.co.uk/horse-forums/showthread.php?t=11091) and you can do some in hand flexions to help him flex from the poll rather than the 2nd or 3rd vertebrae. Google "Artistic dressage" and go to the articles page - there is a good article on flexions there.

[Cyprushorses]

I haven't had the chance to read the replies, so forgive me if I rehash anything anyone has already said.

I'd be inclined to do a mixture of ridden and in hand work to sort this problem out. I do carrot stretches from the ground to help encourage him to soften and relax his top line. He looks like he has a little too much muscle on the underside of his neck, so work in the pessoa should help this. However, it's really important to make sure he pushes forward and down and starts to stretch.

Also, try riding movements like shoulder-fore and shoulder-in to help loosen him through his shoulder, and if you can ride a trot half-pass, that would help too.

Another option is to ride a series of cavallettis. This will help him to pick up his back end and lift his shoulder, thereby working the muscles. Try them on a long rein as well (long not loose!) to encourage stretching.

Hope something here helps. Keep us updated on Icarus!

[CityLights]

We have a pony at work that devlops no muscle there, we have to work him very long and low, he has a super long neck and likes to round behind the bit and drop his back,

we spend ages on the long reins very long low and get him to strech over his topline, we also strap him so that he has some muscle there to develop more and so that it is easier for him to carry like that

[IcarusGirl]

Thats all fab advice. Luckily i seem to be doing all of what you have all suggested already, so i guess it's just going to be a case of being patient and seeing what happens. Certainly watching him move you'd never think "ugh that horse is so upside down" but he's not particularly forward going but very clever, so he's worked out that he can crunch his neck in without actually supporting his back and trick people into thinking he's working.

This is him in feb this year. He normally a lot more relaxed than this (first show of the year) and i've got slightly looser reins than normal because if i picked the reins up he'd have been off! :lol: He's a little tense.
YouTube- Icarus 14.2.10.wmv

He normally moves like this with me on.
YouTube- Icarus Lunging


This is what we've come from though *cringe*, so i'm pleased with the progress. It's got to the point where his schooling is good enough to be picky now!
YouTube- Schooling Icarus April 08

[TanyanChewy]

I'm not going to bother posting tips because you've already been given great advice above so would just be needlessly repeating but i just have to say I love love love you boy he's absolutely stunning. There i've said it :)

Do keep us updated I'd never be bored of seeing your chap at work

[Partner]

MMMm from the videos I would like to see him more off his shoulder and more accepting of the inside leg aid - if you watch he does lose his balance a bit on the turns and this creates an inconistency of bend, head carriage and pace. He also carries himself prettily but not really working.

Above advice is sound - as Cyprushorse says lateral work would be a good move. I would also like to see him more forward of your leg aids in general - not speed, but activity so think "slow the front end (with your seat and position) and keep the back end working". This is the same for the inhand and lunge work. In the ridden work correct transitions would also help with his acceptance of the leg aids.

[IcarusGirl]

Thanks Partner, good advice as usual.

I really need to get someone to video me recently, so i can see what i'm working with. He's always been very difficult to get 'up' infront. Which is why his neck has not developed the correct muscles in the correct places. He's naturally build with a heavy shoulder and not a lot behind, so he's at a bit of a disadvantage - not that that's an excuse. I'm only asking for basic work! All those videos were from before i started my long and low work. We've been doing long and low now for about a month or so and just the other day i noticed he's got a lot more bounce in his paces. He's really relaxing. He's also started salivating - which he's never done before because he was so tense and stiff through the body. His back is bouncing. It's amazing!

It's difficult with Icarus because he was started in spurs and bullied into work, which has given him the wrong attitude towards working. He's suffered from being hauled in from the front and his back end has been ignored. He's also been injured in every way, shape and form, so everytime i get him going half well i have to stop again! This time last year he couldnt canter a 20m circle. He just physically couldnt, he would try, but fall apart - even on the lunge.

I've started this year by going back to the basics. I started long reining him, then went into long and low work. He's always done lateral movement quite well. He's excellent at turns on the forehand, shoulders in, leg yielding etc.

I'll see if i can get someone to video me on sunday doing some schooling.

[IcarusGirl]

He also carries himself prettily but not really working.


Tell me about it!:rolleyes: It's enough to fool the local level judges, but i would actually like to get him going properly, which is why i ask!:lol: He's just not lifting at the wither.

Oh and i would like to add that he was VERY tense in the first showing vid. He was all ears-up-my-nose when i would have liked him to step under and track up.

Saying that, he still was ridden champion at that show (see what i mean about fooling judges that know no better!)

[Cyprushorses]

After watching the vids, I noticed something. He has a slight problem with outside flexion. Have you tried flexion exercises with him? Stand square and get him to stretch his neck towards your toe. Slowly. Then slowly straightening.

Overall he's looking good. Little heavy in front and not fully through from behind but I know you know that already. Keep doing what you're doing, and I'm looking forward to seeing his progress!

[IcarusGirl]

After watching the vids, I noticed something. He has a slight problem with outside flexion. Have you tried flexion exercises with him? Stand square and get him to stretch his neck towards your toe. Slowly. Then slowly straightening.

Overall he's looking good. Little heavy in front and not fully through from behind but I know you know that already. Keep doing what you're doing, and I'm looking forward to seeing his progress!


Oh thats interesting. The flexion thing. I do carrot stretches with him, but i rarely do that when i'm on him. That can be another thing to try!

[Partner]

Good point CH
Icarusgirl if you google artistic dressage and go to the articles page there is a good piece about flexions and inhand exercises to imporve them about halfway down I think.

[IcarusGirl]

This is fab, I'm loving this. I'm just about to post some pics of our schooling session from last night. Have a look and see what you think :)

[Cyprushorses]

Have PM'd you some messages on flexion exercises when riding. Hope they help!