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Loony
1st May 2010, 08:39 PM
BC I think you're the girl for this!

Someone on HHO PM'd me after seeing pictures of Bailey and mentioned the colour Appiano. Apparently it is like a coloured horse (Bailey's has patches of skewbald roan) but with Appy spots.

I can't find anything specific on the internet about it other than random people mentioning it on forums etc, so obviously it's either not really a recognised colour or very rare.

Anyone know of it or can dig out any info for me? The woman on HHO said they start off as a skewbald when they're younger and eventually roan out and develop spots.. something like that..

BEX101
1st May 2010, 09:17 PM
an appiano is an horse with both spotted and coloured characteristics.

Bailey has both - he's got a white patch across one of his shoulders. Its not very clear because his "solid" patches are roan and spottie

piccolo
1st May 2010, 09:24 PM
Type in tresaisonstud and click on horses for sale. Under the "previosly sold ones there is a Appiano mare. It's near the bottom.:)

I think it's like a spotty and coloured roan i think. Quite rare really.

BEX101
1st May 2010, 09:36 PM
You dont see many of them because the appaloosa breed and knapstrupper breed dont accept coloureds. I dont think the British spotted pony society does either. So coloureds and spotties just arnt bred together that often. Saying that there are some that like them and do breed for them.

funkyboots
1st May 2010, 10:06 PM
mike is moulting out rings with pale centers in his roan....

BEX101
1st May 2010, 10:24 PM
mike is moulting out rings with pale centers in his roan....

Looking back at his pictures he doesnt look roan to me. Roans usually have darker heads. He could just be a steel gray or a Blue dun (he does have an eel stripe) Its is possible that he carries the silver dapple gene.

Loony
1st May 2010, 10:51 PM
Ahh so people have heard of it, fab :). Would you say he is an Appiano then? Imagine if I own a rare horse!!

BEX101
1st May 2010, 10:59 PM
I thought he was an appiano as soon as i saw the pictures. Who is is passported with? Do you know his parents names/breeds?

Zeitgeist Mom
1st May 2010, 11:08 PM
His colouring does look just like the appiano on the website Piccolo mentioned. I've never seen one quite like him before. EW's one and only appiano.... :clapping:

Loony
1st May 2010, 11:11 PM
:D :D :D Now he's even more special!!!

Bex I ripped open his passport ready to trace back his lines to find out where his colouring came from... and it's blank :( I have no idea who his dam or sire is.. Gutted!

He is passported as an ISH though.

BEX101
1st May 2010, 11:13 PM
Where was it issued and is the first registered owner the breeder?

Loony
1st May 2010, 11:26 PM
Can't find that out just yet, have no idea where my dad's put it!

His old owner did say to me she tried to contact the old owner to find these things out but they never replied to her, cheek!

Loony
1st May 2010, 11:37 PM
So would you say he is an Appiano then BC? Like someone else said, I can clearly see the white patch on his shoulder. I read something on NR that said it can be any breed aswell - although not doubting you don't know your stuff!

My Crazy Clan
1st May 2010, 11:40 PM
:D thats awesome news!

Lorraine
2nd May 2010, 07:21 AM
As BC says Appiano and Pintaloosa are essentially different names for the same thing. The British Spotted Pony Society state on their web site:

"We also inherited an Appiano Register, and have created a pintaloosa register for these animals; this is another Supplementary Appendix, these animals are not registered as British Spotted Ponies. Any skewbald or piebald/ spotted crosses will be on this register even if they do not exhibit pintaloosa characteristics."

So Appianos/Pintaloosas are able be registered with the British Spotted Pony Society but not on their main register.

This statement on the BSPS web site seems to mean that a solid coloured horse, a spotted horse, or a coloured horse (each of which do not exhibit pintaloosa characteristics ie coloured AND spotted characteristics) created from a spotted parent and coloured parent (ie any skewbald or piebald/spotted crosses) would be an Appiano or Pintaloosa. So it seems that any horse (regardless of its coat pattern or no coat pattern) can be registered as an Appiano/Pintaloosa just because it has one spotted parent and one coloured parent so the names Appiano/Pintaloosa don't refer to it's pattern at all but the horse's parentage.

Appaloosa is strictly speaking a breed of horse, not a spotted coat pattern. As a breed Appaloosas can be spotted or solid coloured, but they are not coloured. Knabstruppers share the same spotted gene in their ancestry as the Appaloosa breed and in the same way the Knabstrupper breed can also be solid coloured and are not always spotted.

I don't quite understand BC's comment about Appaloosa societies not accepting coloured Appaloosas and then stating that an Appiano must be Appaloosa as this seems a contradiction. If an Appaloosa can't be coloured then an Appiano can't be an Appaloosa as it is also coloured!? I'm guessing she means that one parent must be Appaloosa (breed) for a horse to be Appiano? This would seem to suggest the Appaloosa Societies and Spotted Societies maybe think differently about what an Appiano is as the BSPS who make no reference to an Appiano having to be part-bred Appaloosa (breed).

I think the names Appaloosa, Appiano and Pintaloosa when referring to coat pattern (or parentage in the case of the BSPS) are highly confusing.

The term Appaloosa should be strictly used to refer to the Appaloosa breed only, which can be spotted or solid coloured ie spotted Appaloosas and solid coloured Appaloosas and this is how the Appaloosa societies think and regsiter Appaloosas.

The term appaloosa should never be used to descripe anything but the Appaloosa breed, only the term spotted should be used to refer to a spotted coat pattern and to my mind spotted societies should only register only horses and ponies that are spotted. As the spotted gene is a dominant a solid coloured horse from a spotted parent won't possess the spotted gene and so I fail to see why they should be registered with a spotted society so don't understand at all why the BSPS have a Solid Colour Register.

In the same way I don't see how a solid coloured horse should be called or registered as spotted-coloured (Appiano) just because it has a spotted parent and a coloured parent! Next we'll be having solid coloured horses registered as coloured just because they have a coloured parent even though the horse being regsitered isn't coloured!!

From his pictures on an earlier thread of yours ie:

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x271/g167/bailey/Dscf0706y.jpg

you can see his spots clearly and also his coloured pattern so I'd say he was both coloured and spotted - ie a coloured-spotted or tobiano-spotted (I won't use the term Appiano or Pintaloosa as I don't know if he is part-bred Appaloosa (breed).

The spotted gene can produce many patterns of spotted, some of which roan with age. His roaning could be due to the spotted gene or he could also be roan due to the roan gene - not sure there is a name for a coloured, spotted, roan combined! If he is coloured, spotted, roan combined then he'd be even rarer than a coloured spotted!

BEX101
2nd May 2010, 09:30 AM
It is confusing that many people refer to some horses as appaloosa's when really they are referring to the coat colour. It doesnt help that in Britain the Appaloosa breed isnt a "fixed" breed and mares with spotted characteristics but no proven appy ancestry may be accepted into the partbred register and if bred to a registered appaloosa its offspring will be considered appaloosa.
Solid progeny of all the diferent spotted registers are still considered valuable breeding stock as even though they may lack the Lp gene (which would have made them spotted) they still may be carriers of any number of Ptn genes (pattern genes) which means if bred back to a Lp gene carrying horse they are more likely to produce spots than a non spot bred solid coloured.

I can understand why adding any "coloured" gene wouldn't be desirable to some breeders although many say they dont exclusively breed for spots they are very happy when they do get it and any of the coloured genes would potentially hide spots.

bailey to me looks to have a spotted blanket with either a roan front end or possible Gray (they look more like dapples on his neck) It would be more helpfull to see any pictures when he was younger to compare

The Appiano Register the British Spotted Pony society inherited was from when SHAPS - Spotted horse and pony society stopped being a passport issuing authority. BSPS took over the maintenance of their passports, i think most people are encouraged to registed progeny from these equine with other societys such as CHAPS.

Lorraine
2nd May 2010, 01:18 PM
I think it's also confusing that people/societies refer to part-bred Appaloosas as Appaloosas.

It seems that British "appaloosas" are the result of Appaloosa stallions mated with British mares (presumambly non-appaloosa) in the 1970s and the British Appaloosa Society web site states "Under the co-ordination of the British Appaloosa Society, this "cocktail" has formed the basis for a future breed" so it seems that the descendants of these are what they consider to be an Appaloosa and register in their main register. They say after the 4th generation they consider them to be pure bred Appaloosas, but they aren't - they are part-breds and even in the 1millionth generation will still be part-breds.

So a British Appaloosa isn't an Appaloosa, it's a part-bred Appaloosa.

Their import register where the horses have to be proven to be pure Appaloosa would seem to be the true Appaloosas!

The Appaloosa Horse Club UK on the other hand is affiliated to the American Appaloosa Horse Club and seems to only register horses that already hold an American certificate so presumably Appaloosas registered with them are pure-breds, not part-breds.

BEX101
2nd May 2010, 03:47 PM
The stallion on our yard is an imported appy registered with the American appaloosa horse club and looking at his pedigree even he isnt "Pure" i cant quite remember but i think he has arab way back in his pedigree. he is registered with BApS as a grade A.
The stallion i used on my mare was a grade C and if memory serves me right on his mothers side there was a mix of spotted and arab and on his fathers side TB's and Knabstupper.
There are alot of arguments within BApS because there is no real breed standard and the "British" appaloosa is being bred as a spotted performance horse where the USA have breed standards - their appys tend to be around the 15hh mark and of quarter horse type. There is plenty of room for them both one type as "real" appaloosa's and the other as spotted performance horses.

Baily looks much more like the warmblood/performance horse type a lot of british breeders are going for now.

Lorraine
2nd May 2010, 06:05 PM
Appaloosas were created from spotted horses and mustangs, and mustangs have Arab and Barb horses in their background so there is Arab way back in the pedigree of the Appaloosas. The Appaloosa was recognised as a breed in 1938 so certainly if the Arab in a pedigree of the stallion at your yard is before this time then it's part of the ancestry of the breed.

I can understand why the British "Appaloosa" Society wouldn't just adopt the American breed standards for the Appaloosa - because it seems the society registration isn't based on Appaloosas but, by their own admission on their web site, part-bred Appaloosas.

Basically it would be the same as me crossing a shetland pony with a shire horse and breeding descendents of this cross over 4 generations and then declaring these to be pure shetlands (or pure shires), creating a shetland pony society (or a shire horse society) and registering these shire/shetland crossed horses as shetlands (or shires) - of course they won't fit the shetland standard (or shire standard) as they aren't pure shetlands (or shires) but partbreds. If I was to call my shetland/shire crosses Shirelands and create a society for Shirelands as a breed and register this 4th generation and beyond as pure Shirelands then fine, but I can't see how it makes sense to call these shetland-shire crosses shetlands (or shires) and create a soceity to register them as such which is essentially the principle that the British Appaloosa Society are saying they have followed.

It's possible the confusion could be that the Society name is misleading - maybe the society is one for "British Appaloosas" (ie their "future cocktail breed" part descended from the American/Pure Appaloosa), rather than a British Society for the Amercian breed of Appaloosa which is how I am reading the society name to mean. Ie they are defining the British Appaloosa as a different breed to the (American) Appaloosa. If I was to call my shire-shetland crosses "British Shetlands" as opposed to just Shetlands and set up a society called the "British Shetland" Society with this being a society for my "British Shetlands", not pure shetlands then of course people will think my society is a British "Shetland" Society rather than a "British Shetland" Society!

That is confusing enough, without adding in the complication of a spotted pattern that everyone calls Appaloosa!

gem
2nd May 2010, 07:50 PM
*head explodes*

I have a horse with dots on its bum. That is all.

BEX101
2nd May 2010, 07:53 PM
Lorraine - you should try going on some of the spottie forums! They are full of contradictions!
BApS is committee run which is where alot of the problems lie. They are almost all stallion owners themselves and trying to ensure a market for there own stock. If you look up the "appaloosa horse project" it gives an interesting insight to colour/pattern inheritance in all spottie breeds and in my eyes makes a good argument why not to outcross to non spot bred solid horses within the purebred registers.

Lorraine
2nd May 2010, 08:43 PM
Lorraine - you should try going on some of the spottie forums! They are full of contradictions!
BApS is committee run which is where alot of the problems lie. They are almost all stallion owners themselves and trying to ensure a market for there own stock. If you look up the "appaloosa horse project" it gives an interesting insight to colour/pattern inheritance in all spottie breeds and in my eyes makes a good argument why not to outcross to non spot bred solid horses within the purebred registers.
Took a look. "The Appaloosa Project will help you breed consistently for well-marked foals" about sums it up - they are concerned only about spotted markings not the Appaloosa breed.

The Appaloosa isn't a "spotty" breed as it's not only spotted - it's a breed of a certain type/ancestry that can be solid coloured or spotted.

The spotted inheritence isn't exclusive to the Appaloosa - their Appaloosa project is not an Appaloosa project, it's a spotted project and from what I read every mention of appaloosa should be replaced with spotted as they are talking about pattern not a breed of horse.

Calling the Appaloosa a "spotty breed" is like saying shetland ponies are a "coloured breed" because some shetland ponies are coloured and breeders find the coloured shetlands more appealing than the solid coloured shetlands.

As a "breed" solid coloured Appaloosas can be bred together and produce solid coloured Appaloosas that do not carry any patterning influence but are still true to breed and as such have an importance in maintaining the purity of the "breed" and this is what an "Appaloosa" society should be concentrating on - not it's spots!

That would be like shetland pony owners concentrating on breeding coloured shetlands, not caring for any deviation of breed type this might result in or overlooking any impurity in the breed to produce little fat fluffy coloured ponies, rather than breeding for shetlands that were true to type and descended from 100% pure shetlands as their first priority and them being coloured second.