Why are you allowed to use a flash in Dressage?

[Catg]

Hi everyone,

Can anyone explain this to me?

How is it different to using a martingale for example? Surely in principle they're both helping the rider to 'control' the horse?

Thanks

Cat x

[CityLights]

intersetning question

i suppose if you need a martingale its becasue your horse, no offence isnt schooled properly and getting around using one can purely be schooling, where as a flash even the most schooled of horses may need one and somethning that opens its mouth cannot always be stopped by schooling, where as throwing its head can be,

[Smoke on the Water]

Hmmm I agree that is a good point. And one that hadn't crossed my mind. We have just put Harvey in a flash. We've tried and tried and tried and it's our last option. So I am glad it's allowed for dressage!!!

I think S&W makes a good arguement for the answer.

[Tnavas]

I remember at one time no-one used them - dressage horses were supposed to be well schooled with no moouth issues!

Young horses in Fulmers were expected to have a drop as that is what the drop was supposed to be used with. Once out of the lower levels the horse was expected to be in a cavesson noseband.

Mine all wear just cavessons when competing. I've also noticed that since the introduction to New Zealand of the 'American' show hunter jumping more horses are wearing cavessons as flashes etc are not allowed. I feel at times it was a trend to use them - where the current trend is for Grackles!

[Bek B]

Good question Catg. Afterall, both gadgets are ultimately forcing a horse to accept a contact, or stop it escaping it at least.

If Phillipe Karl had his way we'd be allowed a cavesson and that would be that. Whether you agree with Karls philosophies or not are an entirely different matter of course...

[flambards]

I don't think I agree with this, but I'm going to explain it as my instructor does (she rides at the FEI level and uses a flash on all her horses).

A flash prevents the horse from evading the bit by crossing/tensing his jaw. When you are doing the high levels of dressage in particular, if the horse is avoiding the bit at all (even a tiny bit), you're not going to be able to get him to react to subtle cues you give with your hand or the second rein of your double bridle. This isn't a huge resistance, and her horses don't go around with their mouths gaping open while they chomp on the bit if you ride them without a flash - it's a much smaller thing. I still think this should be overcome by strengthening cues from the seat or other aids, but I guess I haven't ever tried to get a horse to piaffe or passage or do canter pirouettes and maybe that's just not an option.

[CityLights]

I don't think I agree with this, but I'm going to explain it as my instructor does (she rides at the FEI level and uses a flash on all her horses).

A flash prevents the horse from evading the bit by crossing/tensing his jaw. When you are doing the high levels of dressage in particular, if the horse is avoiding the bit at all (even a tiny bit), you're not going to be able to get him to react to subtle cues you give with your hand or the second rein of your double bridle. This isn't a huge resistance, and her horses don't go around with their mouths gaping open while they chomp on the bit if you ride them without a flash - it's a much smaller thing. I still think this should be overcome by strengthening cues from the seat or other aids, but I guess I haven't ever tried to get a horse to piaffe or passage or do canter pirouettes and maybe that's just not an option.

your not allowed to put flashes on with doubles anyway so her argument, altough i see where she is coming from makes no sense

[torgrosset]

This is a good question!!!!
Thing is in dressage (well BE dressage stage anyway, not sure about BD) there are marks allocated for submission (I think it could be called something else actually but it's such a long time now I can't remember...). Anyway, the dressage judges are looking for how the horse accepts what is being asked of it, so in theory if a horse is wearing a flash noseband, then it needs that in order to be submissive, if that makers sense? If the horse wasn't wearing a flash and then evades the bit then it isn't being submissive is it? I'm not explaining myself very well, so I hope you understand what I'm trying to say!!!

[Catg]

Thanks for all your replies everyone. x

[Andrew]

The dropped noseband/flash is commonly thought to be used to keep the horses mouth closed so it cannot evade by opening its mouth. However, another theory is that is is used to stabalize the bit in the horses mouth and this may be helpful for young horses who are perhaps likely to have unsteady head carriage. This theory would fit with these nosebands being used in dressage, as they are helping in a postive way the development of the horse.

However, martingales on the other hand are really there to prevent a horse dangerously throwing its head about and potentially injuring the rider. I have also heard that particularily standing martingales, if used constantly can cause a horse to develop muscle on the underside of the neck, hollow and not engage its hind quarters - which probably isn't something dressage wants to aim for.

[Catg]

Thanks Andrew. :o)

[piccolo]

I've wandered this too, Catg! All i can do is agree with others really. But tbh, martingales only come into force(unless done relly tightly)if the horse throws its head an above acceptable level. Flashes work all the time and can't be too comftable! Maybe i would prefer a horse which has a normal cavasson with a martingale beacause it might put its head up like, once. I suppose that does not really matter though. I think these tack are both SIGNS for slight disobedience when ridden, however it's not always the case. I have heard juges mark horses down if it just moves it's lips, so the rider is made to put a flash on. However, i don't think my opinion is really that valid as i don't really think about all this "technical"stuff.

Although if flashes are used, why can't grackles be? I suppose grackles also serve the purpose of stopping jaw crossing too.

[Andrew]

Piccolo - I think the problem is that people use nosebands incorrecly. Even cavassons can be done up too tightly and to a degree stop the horse opening its mouth. I suppose at the end of the day the martingale is an sign that the horse has a 'problem'.

The only solution to the question would be to ride dressage tests without a noseband - but I think this is against the rules, not sure why?

[Tnavas]

I don't think I agree with this, but I'm going to explain it as my instructor does (she rides at the FEI level and uses a flash on all her horses).

A flash prevents the horse from evading the bit by crossing/tensing his jaw. When you are doing the high levels of dressage in particular, if the horse is avoiding the bit at all (even a tiny bit), you're not going to be able to get him to react to subtle cues you give with your hand or the second rein of your double bridle. This isn't a huge resistance, and her horses don't go around with their mouths gaping open while they chomp on the bit if you ride them without a flash - it's a much smaller thing. I still think this should be overcome by strengthening cues from the seat or other aids, but I guess I haven't ever tried to get a horse to piaffe or passage or do canter pirouettes and maybe that's just not an option.

While I can see where she is coming from I will disagree and say that IF the horse has been correctly schooled - he should have no evasion tactics to deal with - he should not need the flash and should be fully focused on the rider. The trend these days is to rush through the basics - we used to have a whole year at each level and a GP horse would be almost in his teens before getting to that level. Today it seems to be rush, rush, rush.

My youngsters are all broken in in a Fulmer and drop - as is used by the Spanish Riding School. In the early days the drop done up with at least 2 fingers gap prevents the horse from opening its jaw wide but allows it to relax it's jaw - to do that the horse has to be able to seperate its top teeth from it's bottom teeth. Once the horse is confident in the bit and the contact - through working long and low into a still hand then the drop can come off and the horse put into a plain snaffle and a cavesson noseband.