Need a flash and a different bit - GRRRR!!

[CDR]

During my lessons today my instructor was trying to get me to do some things and I was struggling so she asked if she could ride him.

Well she had a hell of a job too and couldn't do what she was asking me to lol! At least I know it's down to him and not my inexperience now!

When she got off she suggested I get a flash as he's evading the bit quite a lot and leaning on me. Also he's quite hard mouthed and she said the bit he's got is not strong enough at all (all £70 of it or whatever it cost!!), so we're going to try a Dutch gag and use the 2nd ring for the reins. She's got one that will fit him so we're going to try it on him next week before I buy one. I'm past the 'rental' period with my bit but I'm going to ask if I can still exchange it, it's in perfect condition and I can pay for another 2 weeks rent or whatever if they want. If they won't take it I'll try and ebay it.

Also he's really dead to the leg - now I already knew that and it doesn't really bother me as I wanted a bit of a plod but it does make it rather hard work in a lesson! She asked me what I thought about spurs so I said I wouldn't want to try them just yet but might try the less intense ones at some point if there's no improvement (the ones that are just metal ridges rather than a pokey out metal bit).

So, off to the tack shop on Sunday for a flash and getting a new bit next week.

[Susan]

Have you not got brakes? If it is just that he is leaning on the bit then I would not go for a gag as first choice of alternative bit, but obviously your instructor is the one who has ridden him, this is just my opinion!

Mags can also be very lazy schooling, and his owner wants me to ride him in spurs from now on when we are schooling, I am wary as I have never used them before but I am going to try them out tomorrow and see how we go. She always schooled him in spurs when she rode him, and he is the kind of horse that if he just realises I have them, I probably won't have to use them! (I can carry a schooling whip and rarely need to use it, if I don't have it then he plays me up something terrible!)

It is good though to have the instructor ride and realise when you are having a hard time!

[CDR]

No he's got no brakes either lol! He needs some work!!

Yeah I liked it that she rode him, she wore my hat!

[vels mum]

Canyou not back your aids up with a schooling whip instead of spurs?

[silverbullet]

Is he too strong or too lazy?

Is it possible he feels strong because he is leaning on your hands for balance, Oscar used to do this, still does sometimes, and the best thing for it is schooling, not a stronger bit.

I think that by putting a gag in his mouth and wearing spurs you will just be confusing the signals you are giving him.

Agree with Vel's mum if you're putting him in a gag just carry a whip for the occasional backing up of your leg.

It does sound like he's on his forehand rather than strong though, and no bit will stop him leaning if that is the case.

[black crow]

DONT GO FOR A DUTCH GAG!!!!

Sorry, but the amount of instructors reccomending people to just jump to a dutch gag these days is rediculous!!!

Work up in bits, and school to that, if it doesnt work then go up to the next strength, a dutch gag is a very severe bit and it will not teach him to not lean on your hands! Strapping his mouth shut with a gag in wont solve it! Trust me on that one!! The leverage of the bit will make him pull his head back and in, which will not help him develop top line, it will most likely make him work with his head up and his back hollow. A harsh bit in a hard mouth will NOT work! You need to soften up his mouth to get him more responsive, or it will end up in a tug of war! I had my boy in a dutch gag and i learned the hard way.

Please consider just going up to another level of bit, and using a whip to back up your aids, and help him be responsive in that way. My boy was in a gag, i rode with minimal pressure on the reins but he was still hollow. I switched him to a hanging cheek and got him to work long and low which then helped with the 'breaks' taught him to be more responsive and also got him working perfectly off the leg. They need to learn to work the enrgy themselves, if we use every gadget and harsh bit to make them do it exactly as asked, it isnt teaching them to develop the good ridden manners to do it themselves. You want the horse to feel like it could work into a nice trot when you ask, not having to jab with spurs and hassle them into doing it only on a strong contact. I will also add that you cant get a true contact in a dutch gag as any pressure on the reins will mean leverage on the mouth is increased. If you want to develop a true contact with his mouth and soften it, you shouldnt use something with leverage, only poll pressure! Dutch gags are a serious bit, they shouldnt be taken so lightly!

[gem]

I agree 100% with BC here. I find it a bit weird that your instructor is recommending a very strong bit and spurs at the same time. The poor lad won't have a clue what he's being asked. Maybe try a bit with rolling parts in it. That would make it harder for him to lean on. Maybe even a bitless bridle? That way he'd have nothing at all to lean on.

When I first got Saf she was young and unbalanced and tended to lean on the bit. I spent ages working her with extremely minimal contact, usually reins like washing lines! This meant that she could lean all she wanted but she wouldn't get any contact. It helped her to develop the right muscles to be able to balance herself. Lots of long and low work, circles, working off the track, random turns etc.

As for being dead to the leg, I'd agree with the others about using a schooling whip. In my opinion, your instructor should be focusing on ways to help you combat the problems rather than just suggesting gadgets. They should only be used as a last resort. I'm sure once you've had him for a while and worked out eachother's *quirks*, schooling will become a lot easier and you'll know just how to push his buttons :)

[coloredred]

Sounds to me like your instructor is recommending a gag, flash and spurs because she was frustrated that she couldn't ride him as well as she'd have liked.

Speaking from experience a stronger bit on a slightly strong horse makes a very very strong horse. I went from snaffle to pelham and had worse breaks than i started with.

If he truly is leaning on you and is not unbalanced then you could try a waterford snaffle, he won't be able to lean on it because the mouth piece isn't solid, it's lots of balls linked together. With light hands it isn't harsh at all. Just remember they need to be half an inch bigger than a normal bit to curve round the lips.

I agree with what others have said about the schooling whip, i only have to carry one with Magic and he's more forward.

[kiagirl]

I must admit that I do sometimes ride in a gag with a flash when jumping and wear spurs:o

I have tried lots of bits and i just don't get enough brakes with anything else, I do not school in a gag and flash they are for jumping and xc. I have her in a snaffle mostly.

My instructor recommended spurs as Lib is quite numb and I seemed to be nagging a lot but with spurs, I can have a lighter touch.

There are so many bits out there that I would try first, personally i would just spend time schooling him and getting to know him before experimenting with his tack.

[CityLights]

i do not rate your instructor at all if she is suggesting bitting him up, adding an extra noseband and using spurs

that one makes no sense and should be a last resort if he isnt responding to correct schooling,

if he is lazy which if he needs spurs then he kind of is then why bit him up? and being dead/hard in the mouth is totally different to being strong, if he is evading the bit he could be uncomfrtable hence being possibly a little hard in the mouth, so strpping on a flash isnt going to help

also if your not comfortable wearing spurs dont, unless you have a good lower leg know how to use them or have a teacher that will explain how to use them you will in the long run make him deader to the leg and worse,

its also silly to add all these things at once, him being evaise and needing a flash could solve him being strong, so why shove two new things on at once?

if he is leaning on you and is dead to the leg these are purely things that can be solved by schooling not by bitting up and wearing spurs

[CDR]

Hey don't jump down my throat! My instructor is very good and I'm perfectly happy with her.

She asked me my opinion of spurs before she tried him so that was nothing to do with how she handled him. She didn't push me at all, I said straight away that I wouldn't be comfortable with using them at the moment and that was fine. I do use a schooling whip, I had one with me then and she was happy for me to persist with that.

She could also see that he was evading the bit and that I was struggling to stop him before she rode him. Her riding just confirmed that it wasn't down to my lack of experience as she has loads of experience and clearly knows exactly what she's doing, she's taught me loads already. I used to have a different instructor and I felt I got further in 10 minutes with this lady than I did in 10 hours with the old one.

So no, it's not a strong bit, flash and spurs all in one go. It's a flash, a try with a dutch gag on the 2nd ring in my next lesson to see if it suits him before I get one of my own and spurs maybe one day in the future if he ignores the whip. If the gag doesn't suit him I won't go for it, I know it's a strong bit and I may well end up going for a lesser one but she's got a gag his size and we're going to try it in my next lesson, it won't harm him to wear it for 30 minutes.

[CDR]

Is he too strong or too lazy?

Is it possible he feels strong because he is leaning on your hands for balance, Oscar used to do this, still does sometimes, and the best thing for it is schooling, not a stronger bit.

Both strong and lazy, hard to get going but doesn't like stopping when he does. He leans on me, evades the bit and basically ignores it! I am doing schooling with him too obviously.

[CDR]

Maybe try a bit with rolling parts in it. That would make it harder for him to lean on. Maybe even a bitless bridle? That way he'd have nothing at all to lean on.



His bit does have a rolling part in the middle, it's a myler comfort snaffle, he still manages to lean on it. I wouldn't be comfortable with a bitless bridle.

[coloredred]

His bit does have a rolling part in the middle, it's a myler comfort snaffle, he still manages to lean on it. I wouldn't be comfortable with a bitless bridle.

I think it's actually quite easy for them to lean on mylers as when contact is taken up on both reins the mouth piece acts like a solid mouth piece, similar to a straight bar or ported bit.

[gem]

Agree with coloredred. As she mentioned in her last post, a waterford snaffle could be a better idea. All parts of that roll so it'd be impossible for him to lean against. I'd imagine using a stronger bit, especially a gag, would just harden his mouth even more and you'll just end up having to use harsher and harsher bits. Also, if he's leaning on your hands and is allowed to keep doing that by using a solid bit, he'll never learn to balance for himself.

[Lorraine]

Like others I don't think a gag would be the best bit and personally I'd stay with the myler you have.

As you say it's hard to get him going, but when you do he won't stop it sounds like the problem is due to lack of balance and although essentially lazy, once he gets going he's falling on the forehand, leaning on the bit, which has the effect of then making him harder to stop as it's like a runaway train with his legs constantly trying to catch up with a head that is becoming heavier and heavier as he leans more and more on the bit.

The simplest way to stop him leaning on the bit is to give with the reins, then he suddenly finds there is nothing to lean on and he can't rely on you holding him up!

There are two things you can do when he leans on the bit - give with the reins and let him find his own balance or helping him to balance himself by doing a half halt or a downward transition and then up immediately up again. Alternating between the two can work well - when he leans balance him, then when he's balanced give with the reins at intervals so he has no constant contact to start leaning on - then use the half halt or transitions if and when he does.

If he is leaning on the bit, then this will make his mouth hard as he is becoming used to a constant and heavy pressure on the bit from his leaning and hence when you want brakes you will find you have none. Teaching him to balance himself and giving with the reins when he is balanced so that he has nothing to start to lean on will soften his mouth and get him used to a lighter pressure from the bit when he does work into a contact without leaning and so will also give you brakes when you need them.

If you can get him balanced and used to a softer contact without him leaning, then you will probably find he will also stop evading the bit without the need for a flash.

As he is hard to get going then spurs would help to back up the leg aids, as will a whip. I feel it is personal preference as to which a rider uses - some prefer spurs as using them has no effect on the rein contact when backing up the leg aid and applies the aid in exactly the same place as the leg aid, others prefer a whip as it is easier avoid using it unintentionally. Also some horses respond better to one than the other.

If riding in spurs you need a stable enough leg position to be able to give a leg aid with and without the spur making contact so that even though you have spurs on you aren't using them all the time as if you do this then will deaden the horse's sides. This is why I don't like the comb edged spurs because they are serated around the inside and back of the spur which makes it hard not to use them all the time, whereas spurs with a neck/ball on the back means you can apply an aid using the inside of your leg and foot without using the spur, and then using the back of your foot by turning your toes out to use the spur only when needed.

[CDR]

What about brakes though? A waterford snaffle won't help with that will it?

[cocopops]

Has this horse raced in the past, just wondering as im fairly sure he is TB?
If he has raced, you cannot rely on pulling on your reins to slow him down, you need to use your other aids.
For a horse resisiting the bit i personally lunge them in side reins untill they will comfortably work into a contact. If he is still evading the bit, he might have a problem.
I would personally use a loose ring kk bit, they are fairly hard to grab hold of and i have found them effective on many different horses. The metal in them warms and helps make them want to soften into the contact, i have nothing against the use of flashes, but would lunge wihtout one to see if the horse will accept a bit with a steady contact.
I know we have not ridden the horse in question, and your instructor has, but she is possibly thinking about making things easier short term for you, rather than in a years time when you want to do a dressage test, but cant use a bit that is dressage legal, which is another reason why many people stay away from gags/pelhams etc for flatwork.
I hope i have not caused you offence in my post.

[CityLights]

What about brakes though? A waterford snaffle won't help with that will it?

yes, espcially a horse that leans or gets hold or is evasive, they are fabulous bits,

[CDR]

Has this horse raced in the past, just wondering as im fairly sure he is TB?
If he has raced, you cannot rely on pulling on your reins to slow him down, you need to use your other aids.
For a horse resisiting the bit i personally lunge them in side reins untill they will comfortably work into a contact. If he is still evading the bit, he might have a problem.
I would personally use a loose ring kk bit, they are fairly hard to grab hold of and i have found them effective on many different horses. The metal in them warms and helps make them want to soften into the contact, i have nothing against the use of flashes, but would lunge wihtout one to see if the horse will accept a bit with a steady contact.
I know we have not ridden the horse in question, and your instructor has, but she is possibly thinking about making things easier short term for you, rather than in a years time when you want to do a dressage test, but cant use a bit that is dressage legal, which is another reason why many people stay away from gags/pelhams etc for flatwork.
I hope i have not caused you offence in my post.
No offence caused :cheekywink:

No he's never raced although he was bred to race. They discovered he didn't have it in him so presumably he did have some training but I don't know how much.

After I took him over a jump today I really struggled to slow him down! What other aids are you referring to? I sat deep, didn't lean forwards, did half halts, 'hugged' with my legs and tried not hugging too!

Never heard of a kk bit! I'm not going to be competing on him anyway so dressage legal bits aren't an issue. The cob I used to ride had a dutch gag too and had his reins on the 2nd ring (3rd when on pleasure rides apparently although I never did one). I didn't encounter any problems and I was aware it was a strong bit so was more careful than I would be in a snaffle.

[CDR]

btw the instructor said if I get one to go for a happy mouth one - not sure what the difference is though.

[CDR]

also the instructor said to lunge him and use side reins to help that way.

[Evening Star]

One thing I would really suggest is ground work, he both won't go and won't stop and it sounds like he really needs consistency in his aids.
If you'd like to know a few groundwork exercises let me know, just don't want to write it all out now for you to tell me you already do them lol!
I have a good article at home somewhere that i'll have a look at for you as its got some good tips for horses that 'dead to the leg' and it follows the same kind of principles that the groundwork exercises do.

[CDR]

You've reminded me that I've got a book of schooling exercises, 101 or something!! I referred to it when I was loaning previously but Bailey is different so I'll have a look and see what they've got for him. Will let you know if I want any further info on groundwork though.

[Lorraine]

If a horse is leaning on the bit then he's not balanced and carrying himself and is relying on the reins to hold him up.

Lunging in side reins gives him a steady contact to lean on and could make him worse. Changing bits doesn't really address the cause of him leaning on the bit - ie lack of balance, not carrying his weight behind, falling on the forehand, all resulting in a need to be held up by the rider hands by leaning on the bit.

Rather than changing or upping the ironmongery in his mouth, I'd work on the root and get him to carry himself, and not give him a steady contact to lean on and use schooling to teach him to balance himself as I described in my earlier post. Lunging in a pessoa where there is no contact to hold him up whilst encouraging him to work from behind will help teach him to balance himself rather than lunging him in side reins which gives him a steady contact to lean on to maintain his balance. Putting a harsher bit in his mouth when he can't carry himself will only make leaning on the bit more uncomfortable for him but if he needs to lean on the bit because he can't balance himself he'll have no choice but to lean and once he gets used to the harsher bit he'll have a harder mouth and you could end up having to put an even harsher bit in his mouth and get into a vicious circle of upping and uppping the bit each time.

[torgrosset]

I have to agree with Lorraine. It sounds to me like a classic case of being unbalanced and relying on you, the rider, for support/balance - which is why he's leaning on the bit and you're having problems with brakes/stopping him.

In the short term, yes a dutch/continental gag would help you to stop him, but in the long term I think you'll find he'll still lean on the bit (you'll find he'll tuck his head into his chest and lean that way). I think you'll also find by putting him in a dutch gag it'll make his mouth harder too. Just because it has a happy mouth mouthpiece doesn't mean it'll stop him from beiung hard mouthed. The reason he's hard mouthed is because he's leaning on the bit and a stronger bit wont stop this.

I think your instructer is advising the changes as a short term solution, but in reality she isn;t addressing the actual problem which is he hasn;t got any natural balance and is relying upon you for it. If you can address this then you'll find he'll be a much happier horse and you wont need a stronger bit. When I first got Boots (who was an ex-racer/point-to-pointer and had the hardest of mouths ever) he constantly leaned on the bit and had no brakes (he was basically the same as your boy in that he was lacking balance). The stronger the bit, the worse he became. In the end I put him in a hanging cheek snaffle, did lots of schooling and work on transitions to help his balance and he was as happy as larry!!!

[CDR]

I'm taking everything on board so thanks for all your input.

What are the benefits of a hanging cheek snaffle?

[gem]

It's a fairly soft bit but still gives you a good amount of control. It works by exerting poll pressure when you pull on the reins, hence technically slowing them down. If I had a horse that leant on the bit I wouldn't go for one of those. He'll still have something solid to lean on and pulling his head down is likely to unbalance him further. Perhaps just a loose ring snaffle would help? There'd be less for him to lean on that way. I'd really recommend riding him with little to no contact too so that was he *has* to learn how to balance himself and not rely on mum to do it for him.

[Burnie]

I can't recommend the pessoa type training aids enough for this sort of problem, I lunged Tilly once or twice a week in one and it helped her balance so much. You can get cheap versions on eBay for about £30 that do the trick :)

[CDR]

Pessoas look very complicated to put on! Are they as fiddly as they look??

gem - Bailey's in snaffle at the moment but need some breaks!!

[CDR]

Will def try riding with looser reins, could be interesting though as he only had a field at his last place, no school so he needs quite a bit of steering. Will just have to use my body more but I think he might get a bit confused for a while!

[gem]

:lol: I know what you mean. Saf had the same problem when I got her. She'd only ever been in a school a handful of times. She'd sooner go into the wall than turn. Soon learned though :D

What kind of snaffle is it? A loose ring snaffle (as opposed to an eggbutt snaffle for example) stops them from being able to pull against you as the rings turn around in the bit (if that makes any sense whatsoever).

[CDR]

It's a myler comfort snaffle, it's got a rolling bit that goes round the joint.

[flambards]

I'll vouch for the "dropping contact makes them stop" thing!

I think every green horse I've ridden (that's a lot) has been through this phase where they decide they want me to carry their heads while they tank around the ring :lol: The first few times I was still in the mindset of riding a well schooled horse, so I'd try and get them off my hands the normal ways (half halts and sitting deep and eventually if things got out of control, pulling). I very soon learned that you will never, ever win a tug of war with a horse or pony. It's just not going to work.

So then an instructor suggested dropping the contact when the horse leaned - worked very well. The particular horse was a driving-trained draft, so he was really good at the "you pull, I pull back 3000x stronger" game - got him off my hands enough to stop him tanking around and doing some decent work pretty quickly.

Good luck!

[Lorraine]

Pessoas look very complicated to put on! Are they as fiddly as they look??

gem - Bailey's in snaffle at the moment but need some breaks!!
They look far more complicated than they are. Basically you have the fleece that goes around the bum and a string that is attached to both sides of the fleece with a clip in the middle that clips onto the back of the roller to hold the fleece around the bum in place. Then there are two long strings from each side of the fleece - these go through the side rings of the roller to the bit (where a clip with a pulley attaches to the bit), then down through the front legs and to the bottom of the roller attached by a clip on the end of the string. Once you have put one on once or twice it's really simple.

[Lorraine]

Will def try riding with looser reins, could be interesting though as he only had a field at his last place, no school so he needs quite a bit of steering. Will just have to use my body more but I think he might get a bit confused for a while!
Don't ride with loose reins with no contact (or steering) at all - as he can simply drop his head and lean still if the reins are a constant length albeit longer. Instead give and re-take, give and re-take the reins (ie keep a normal contact for 3-4 strides, straighten your arms in front of you and give with the reins for 3-4 strides then take the contact back for 3-4 strides and keep repeating) so he has no constant contact to lean on at all but you still have (when you re-take the reins) times when you can easily steer, control the pace, halt halt to help him balance, etc.

Whenever you feel he is starting to lean or fall onto the forehand, come down a transition, push him back up again immediately to re-balance him then give and re-take as before. He will soon learn that he needs to keep himself in balance and can't rely on your hands constantly being there for him to lean on in order to keep his balance. As he gets better keep the contact for 5-10 strides and give for 3-4 strides and keep repeating. Even with a balanced horse giving the reins every now and again in walk, trot and canter is a good exercise to ensure the horse is balancing himself, reminding him that he cannot rely on the rider holding him up and ensuring that the outline he's working in is from engagement from behind rather than the rider pulling him down in front as he should keep the outline as the rider gives with the reins if the outline is coming from his engagement behind.