What did I do

[Ahrena]

so wrong to turn her from
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/ahrena/IMG_2751.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/ahrena/IMG_2783.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/ahrena/IMG_1863.jpg
(I wanted to put sj pics up as they show how happy she is to do ANYTHING for me but the post would be deleted)
to
this?
http://i951.photobucket.com/albums/ad353/I_love_Lacey/M2U00397_0002.jpg
http://i951.photobucket.com/albums/ad353/I_love_Lacey/M2U00397_0005.jpg


Before, no matter how bad everything else in my life got, (without wanting to get sympathy, bad bad bad stuff has happened in my life), I always had her by my side so no matter how bad it got I could face it cos I always had her to fall back on.

Now I don't, she's going to brat camp on wednesday and if that doesnt work (and I cant see it having a lasting effect) then i dont know what I'll do because shes always been everything.

She could be so good and I've absolutely destroyed all possibility of that :(:(:(:(

[CDR]

Don't give up, 'brat camp' as you call it really helped a friend of mine with her horse. Don't know what else to say really as I have no personal experience but good luck and have a big hug O xx

[beks the artist]

Perhaps a change of career - she would make an excellent endurance horse I recon! Don't give up on her just yet xx

[Ahrena]

Except for last time I hacked her out she did 2 verticals with no warning or reason then jogged/spun all the way back until I eventually got off and led her because I was too scared to ride her

:(

[TedMonkey]

Don't beat yourself up - you haven't done it to her. She is just a madam and lots of people would have given up on her long ago.

Think back to that amazing long-distance ride you did with her recently. You looked like a total team and you were both clearly very happy.

[Storm]

I think it's a little presumptuous of anyone who posts here to say, it's nothing to do with you and it's all her - this may be the case, but it may not...

I've seen ponies jumped season after season being gobbed yanked, spurred and even some that, haven't been mistreated so much but just overworked / jumped / faced - eventually a few of these decided they'd had enough and turned into the most nightmareish of animals

There's always a reason for everything and I'd look closely at her workload, level and type that's she's been in leading up to this.

Look at her as a horse, has she undergone a personality change when you're on the ground? What's her reaction to seeing her tack, does she enjoy turn out, any signs of stress - even subtle things can be warning signs.

Something is causing her to tell you in the only way she can that she's not happy. I'm assuming all physical causes have been ruled out (back, neck, teeth, tack etc) so it'll be down to the mental.

She's obviously highly strung and perhaps misguidedly feels too pressured. My honest advice, having worked with quite a number of 'problem' horses would be to go back to basics with her, groundwork, join up, long reining, grooming, bonding and walks in hand. Get her confidence in you back up, before you even think about getting back on - and when you do, just go for a hack in walk in company with lots of chat and praise.

You've seriously unhappy pony there, she's not a brat, she's not a madam, she just can't speak in our language so she's trying to tell you in the only way she can.

[ness]

Aww what a shame-you were both doing so marvellously well!
I remember you had problems before this a long time ago now, though lacey and you got through it together.
I really hope you can sort it out at brat camp. Lacey is a very special mare.

[beks the artist]

Except for last time I hacked her out she did 2 verticals with no warning or reason then jogged/spun all the way back until I eventually got off and led her because I was too scared to ride her

:(

Oh :ashamed: I thought after doing the 100 miles you did in the summer she really enjoyed that.

Storm has some very valid points there, which I would personally try with her xx

[Lorraine]

As you say she did two verticals hacking out and obviously did it the ring also from the photos, I'd say she was unhappy about something when being ridden in general. I'd get her checked over from head to toe by a chiropractor, get her saddle checked, teeth checked, etc, if you haven't already done so, before assuming it is simply bad behaviour and sending her to brat camp.

[black crow]

Totally agree with Storm. No horse does anything for no reason. I've worked with a lot of problem horses myself, and there is always a reason for it, no matter what.

As Storm has said, she cant speak our language, and this is the only way she can show that there is a problem. She's always seemed to be better when you dont compete her, but the problem starts again when she does. A career change might well be in order, and stick to it. Im not trying to be horrible here, but i think she needs consistency. Dont go back to jumping when she's being calm.. A nice relaxing life - some horses just find competing too stressful, and gadgets, calmers, etc etc just wont solve it. It really seems like she is unhappy being jumped 99% of the time.

As i said a long time ago, there was a horse i worked with who did exactly what Lacey does and worse. It took his owner totally changing how she thought about him and competing to change his behaviour, as well as schooling him to calm down - they both went from recklessly flying around a 3.6" course with no breaks, tugging, shouting and yanking at him, to them going in just one year, on to do BSJA together. She outgrew him last year and he got sold for about 8k

She isnt a brat, she's trying to tell you something. It's our job to try and listen to that. You said she was a dream on your endurance ride, but she went straight back to having problems when jumping. I know she was a good jumper, but maybe just focus on less competative dressage when she is sound to compete again in the future?

[eeek]

I really don't know - I think it's impossible for any of us to judge as we can't know all the facts without watching you both regularly.

When I met Lacey I thought she was lovely, but obviously very highly strung. I have met quite a few horses like that and they become 'speed crazy' so easily.. You only have to gallop in the same place twice in a row and some horses will take months or even years before they can visit the place without going nuts.

Lacey is obviously highly intelligent and no doubt has a fantastic memory. She could be misbehaving on your hacks because of something that happened in the same place years ago. It might not even have been in that place, maybe a smell or a sound reminded her of an episode which upset her.

She may well be over-faced from jumping. How often do you jump/week? How long are your schooling sessions? How often do you compete/month?
Vinny could hack all day every day without getting bored, but if I have a jumping session more than twice a week he really loses his sparkle. Same with race training. With flatwork he wouldn't want more than one session a week. The sessions for everything are very short - maybe 10 minutes, plus warming up and cooling down.

The most he has ever competed is most week for 6 months of the year, which was a lot to ask of him. By the end of the season I knew he was ready for a break.

I think it is difficult with a horse in medium/hard work to stop them getting stale. I know I have to make a real effort to make sure Vinny stays enthusiastic about everything.

Lacey may feel the same way about competing that I do about exams: her excitement may be more close to nervousness than joy. When everything was manageable and easy, she enjoyed doing well. But then it became more difficult and she couldn't cope with the idea of tackling these difficult courses and difficult jumps every week, maybe forever? I don't believe horses think far into the future, but they are intelligent enough to think to themselves 'this is too difficult for me, I have had enough'.

Have you ever had that feeling that something is just TOO MUCH? And even going back to basics doesn't seem easy? And you don't want that thing any more, ever? Maybe Lacey feels that way. I don't know.

I am just speculating remember, I don't know how you do things with Lacey and I don't know how she responds. So I'm sorry if I have got it wrong.

[so-n-so]

i totally agree with storm.. i couldnt have put it better myself!
by the sounds of it - shes not just telling you - shes SHOUTING that something isnt right.

you may have high ambitions to just go jumping, jumping, jumping but she may not.

[My Crazy Clan]

Have you thought about having one of them animal communicates out? I thing this would give you some answers.

[sazzy925]

Ahrena, you have done brilliantly with lacey - everyone who's seen your journey knows how hard lacey is and how beautifully patient you've been with her, every time you post pics of you two - whether it be good or bad times you can see that you love her and have tried everything. Loads of us would have given up by now, but you've stuck with her - and that says a hell of a lot.
I firmly believe that you will get through this bad patch, and that eventually you will get through it - because you're determined for it to work. I hope so much that sending her away will at least help you on the path to it working - good luck with it all.

[CityLights]

sometimes just unfortunatley happends to them nothing you have done, almost be inclined to say its a medical issue but again it could not be and would cost you a lot of pennis to maybe find nothing

[Ahrena]

-sigh-
Okay this was meant simpily as a rant not as quest for advice as atm we have our plan..and I was sitting here tears pouring down my face sobbing like mad but I'll answer best I can - if it comes out like I sound touchy please bear in mind this is ground we have covered time and time again and answering the same questions over and over gets a little tedious?

"Brat camp" is named so as a joke. The people she's going to were taught by Monty Roberts and came highly recomended by the lady who has given me a couple of intelligent horsemanship groundwork lessons with her, I know she works well with those methods and its not force. Their initial plan of action - although it'll obviously adapt to suit her - is starting with work on the ground and gradually adding more and more pressure, also working with a hood thing similar to blinkers but it goes above the eyes as a horse will, apparantly, rarely rear if they can't see above. We just call it brat camp.

Now I'll go through point by point.

On the ground - no change with me. I did feel around June that we'd somewhat "lost" our connection so I increased the enthusise on groundwork, spent a night in her stable, and then after our trek it felt like we were perfect together again. Unfortunatly she then needed some time off as she had been rubbed a bit where she had had ringworm and I had to wait for the hair to grow back, it was the first show back after that where she went nuts. She's been bargey with my mum on the ground, increasingly badly although my instinct with that was she tried it on, being the horse she is, and my mum let go of her so she learnt it worked with her? Mum then had a groundwork lesson with her and she's been fine since.

All physical things checked, time and tme again, and specifically for this. Saddle, teeth, back, vets done an MOT, she's been on regumite, put her back in her snaffle and found she got worse so put her back in her kimblewick where she was better in up until the last time I rode her.

We've taken her back to basics before, gave her a few months off and did a lot of groundwork ect, walks in hand, join up ect, and it never made much difference once I was back on board.

The problem isn't just jumping - if it was there wouldn't be so much of a problem. I was perfectly chirpy about the potentional career change (which would be SJ only btw as she hasn't been a problem EVER jumping at home or xc) up until she did it out hacking

. I guess I probably am over reacting - its only been 2 shows she's been like this and then those 2 vertical ones out hacking but it shook it up a LOT when she did it out hacking as that was always my fall-back plan, I wouldn't mind just hacking her, you guys seem to think I'm this ultra competitive monster but I'm not - I like to go out and compete but as long as I have a good ride I don't even care if I win! If I was just so obsessed with competing, why didn't I just get Willow put to sleep instead of forking out £7000 to save a horse they said I'd never sit on again? I guess you get that impression because I only usually post pictures of us at shows and don't really post much else, but the reason for that is the response I got when I started to ride Willow again, its put me off posting much on here in honesty as that hurt me a lot. But I'm not, I just believe very firmly in what Lacey can be and have so much sheer determination to make it happen. But if going to Ian's doesn't help then she won't be put there anymore as it isn't fair.

When I jumped her, it was absolutely maxiumum of once a week (including show so if we competed I didnt jump at home) but it was more like once a fortnight or once a month in reality, especially in summer when trekking down to the school and setting out a course of fences isn't as appealing as going for a ride in highclere park. Schooling sessions tend to be no longer than 20 minutes, jumping sessions no longer than 30 mins (with warm up ect). She hasn't been competed more than twice a month this entire year, usually less.

Finally..I refuse to believe that she does not enjoy jumping - on its own as the actual exercise. Maybe she doesn't like competing, or show jumping or whatever, I'll go with that. But to say this horse doesn't like her jumping is like saying...like gravity doesn't exist on earth. From my posts and pictures I can understand why someone might think she doesn't, but believe me when I say everyone who has seen her jump in real life agrees with me on this one, you can see it in her eyes.

but yeah tbh this was more of a rant than anything, we've covered pretty much everything I can possibly think of and going to Hartsop farm is our last resort, if it doesn't work, hopefully she'll hack out for me. If not then she'll just be a companion, maybe have a foal as I don't think its her temperment that is to blame, she's wonderfully affectionate, would never bite or kick, has great conformation and a lot of talent.

[Mungo Madness]

I think the key part here is what you said when you had the woman out the other week, well what you said she said. That Lacey has the full trust in you on the ground, but not with her on your back. I personally believe that is the issue, but I also firmly believe that you can sort that, and I think that going to brat camp will be helpful for that too. I really think that's a key part, and yes, I do agree with you that from where I am looking, I think that Lacey does enjoy jumping, definately!

[eeek]

Sorry you're offended but your post was a question so we tried to answer!

Anyway, from what you've said now I'll have a guess that maybe the competition atmosphere started to blow her brain.. And then, as she is a highly strung girl, she formed a habit of blowing a fuse which she now applies to any stressful/annoying situation?

Big hugs, hopefully it is just a bad patch.

[Evening Star]

I really can't say more than good luck, I hope brat camp gives you a breakthrough.
You've been through SO much with her and I really respect you for not giving up on her.
From watching your videos and looking at all of your pictures over the years I could never say she doesn't enjoy jumping as you can tell she really loves it.
Rearing is her way of telling you she isn't liking this situation and its a hard one to solve because she has done it in so many different situations.
Please keep us all updated, everyone just wants to help so don't get grumpy at those who have tried to offer their help.

[bimba]

Ahrena I don't think you should take what people have said as criticism or them doing you down I think they're just trying to help you particularly when they've seen how happy and successful you and Lacey can be together.

I used to have a mare on loan who was like Lacey, when she became unsure of what was being asked of or slightly uncomfortable with what was going on around her she reared and span. The situations could range from anything from a jump she didn't like the look of to a puddle/shadow in the road, it was just her natural reaction to being put in what she percieved to be a difficult situation. Some days I'd have to get off and lead her home out hacking as she'd get so panicked she couldn't go either way with a rider on board, she put me in hospital twice once with concussion and once with a twisted knee cap and at the time nothing unpleasant was happening. It turned out she had been abused very badly in a previous home and we just came to accept that she couldn't deal with certain situations because her automatic reaction was to use her strength and fear against the human as she was anticipating being forced to do something. She now lives with a lovely woman who hacks her out with her friends a couple of times a week and does the odd fun ride, all she needed was the stress and pressure taking out of her life and she learnt and she became a happy horse again. No matter how good a rider you are and how hard you try sometimes they just can't forget negative associations.

[Ahrena]

oh guys please stop taking everything I say as the wrong way! I did say excuse me if I sound snappy or short or touch or whatever, simpily because it was intended as a rant, not a question, and having to explain myself on this forum for the 1948295993295th time because people don't understand what I'm saying gets tedious? And I'm going through a hard time ect so I probably will come across a little short in frustration. I dont mind people trying to help, its just I know people will get bitchy if I say it won't work but its only because we've tried it all.

[Bek B]

This all must be such a worry for you given the future is uncertain.

I can imagine you are wracking your brains - where, what, when , how?

-sigh-
. I guess I probably am over reacting - its only been 2 shows she's been like this and then those 2 vertical ones out hacking .

This comment just made me think...

Do you keep a diary on your riding activities?

If you do, how detailed.

Why am I wittering on? Well, Lacey's behaviour seems like a complete mystery at the moment, it also sounds quite intermittent. Perhaps by keeping a detailed diary of you emotions whilst riding, her performance and the environments (show ring, open fields, enclosed lanes etc) MAY help pinpoint some trigger point that you haven't noticed to date. Sometimes things can be so subtle they can easily be dismissed or unoticed. But if you have detailed written accounts that you can compare a recurring theme may just pop up and then you'll have a basis for any management/rehab etc.

Just an idea...

I hope you solve the issue somehow, good luck.

[Smoke on the Water]

I think a diary is a really good idea. It's what I'm doing now with Harvey and his hacking problems.

[Lobelia Overhill]

...having to explain myself on this forum for the 1948295993295th time ...

I'm new here and don't know about your situation with your horse, but having read your post, my only thought is, if it was me I'd turn her out for a year, then start from the beginning again...

hope something works for you!

[Mobell]

All I can say is big hugs as I have a Lacey and was where you are now in July. A crap life situation which took my confidence didn't help either. So we have been at brat camp on a weekly basis ever since and things are going well but slow. Like you I don't know what I will do if it doesn't work out so we keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best. I wish you luck with the brat camp but if you want a chat/rant let go to someone who also wants to scream at times feel free to pm me.

[Ahrena]

Heh great minds think alike! I've been keeping a logbook for the last 2 and a half years, and tbh beyond it evidently being a napping issue (never a problem on the way home for example) there isn't really anything else thats come up.

She's off to hartsop farm today so I guess we'll just have to see how it goes, if I still can't even hack her after that without her rearing she may as well have time off cos I can't stomach riding her if shes gonna do that anymore, I'm losing my nerve.

Thanks guys
Mobell - good luck with yours too

[High Sights]

Hi it's just a thought I'm likely way off the mark.

But you say she normally only rears at comps, i noticed that you seem to wear spurs at comps (am I right?). Not saying their is anything wrong in spurs at all but if you don't wear them for everday riding but do at comps and only usually get the change in behaviour their could this be a pattern?

I'm sure you have already rulled this out and I am sorry if you have.

Chin up keep strong

[Nat]

Can't really comment as i dont know you or your pony but most ponies have a reason to start a behaviour in the first place- this may be nothing to do with you at all or it may be, i can't say. But, like people, horses fall very easily into habits and it may be that her natural way of reacting to things now is to rear, even if the 'thing' or whatever it was that triggered the rearing in the first place is long gone. She looks from photos over the years (and from how you have described her) like a sharp, energetic type of pony and this energy has to go somewhere so it's going upwards. I'm not trying to put a downer on you here at all but sometimes ponies who have turned a behaviour into a habit may never truly come out of it. Some do though but it's very much down to individual personality of the animal.

Keeping a diary is a good idea. I assume she has had a full MOT and tack check etc?

[dun blonde]

Hi it's just a thought I'm likely way off the mark.

But you say she normally only rears at comps, i noticed that you seem to wear spurs at comps (am I right?). Not saying their is anything wrong in spurs at all but if you don't wear them for everday riding but do at comps and only usually get the change in behaviour their could this be a pattern?

I'm sure you have already rulled this out and I am sorry if you have.

Chin up keep strong

I'm sure like you say that OP has already ruled that out,but it is a very good point,especially as mares in particular I beleieve can be very sensitive around that area generally,something to do with their ovaries I think?? Or have I remembered that completely wrong lol

Anyway,nothing much to add OP,other than hope you get to the bottom of it eventually,and maybe you need to stop wondering so much about the 'why',and what you've done etc.Focus on what you are *going* to do,rather than what you've already done.Good luck:)

[sparkey]

I'm sorry to hear that you're not hopefull about brat camp Ahrena. I really think you should have faith in this because this IS one thing that you haven't tried. She's a tricky mare allright and hats off to you for persevering with her.
Please have faith and be positive though, because if you get her back thinking, "oh I wonder when this good behaviour is going to run out," then I can pretty much guarantee you that it Won't last and you'll be back to, not just square one, but square zero! You have to take her back thinking "She is completely happy, she's completely contented and we have the strongest bond we have ever had." You know how intuitive that pony is so if you're not completely positive and assertive then she will lose trust in you again which would be a great pity.