Why do instructors insist on such a short hold???

[Biddy]

When I was taught to ride some 30 odd years ago (showing my age) I was fortunate enough to have a fabulous instructor, who taught me to ride with my seat. We did a lot of work without reins, and also without stirrups, and having good, light hands was the big aim. We were taught to 'drive' the pony with our seat and legs to help to keep their forehand light, so that the ponies remained responsive to the bit.
Today, it seems, that all of the instructors my daughters have through riding club (all properly qualified BHSI) have an obsession on having the ponies held on a really tight rein. My daughters are now 5 and 7 - the youngest still being a bit inclined to get tangled up and have one rein longer than the other by half a mile etc - and it seems that most of the lesson it's 'Will you PLEASE shorten your reins!!!!'. :scared: Now, fair enough, as Phili's legs only just come down to halfway on the saddle flaps, there's not a huge amount of point in getting her to use her legs properly to turn Fern, as Fern can't feel then, but I have noticed that most of the ponies in the lesson have quite hard mouths now, and are very unresponsive - also none of the ponies ever look relaxed and settled going round the school - even at a walk. I've even noticed Fern leaning on the bit a lot more, or going round with her head up in the air to avoid the bit (she's in a mild, plain snaffle, fits fine, teeth are fine etc, and when she's on a more relaxed rein she'll carry herself nicely and accept the bit).:innocent: I even got told off for getting the girls to put a finger in the neckstrap so they didn't jab the ponies mouths when they started jumping.:shocked:
Now, I know that when you're a bit bigger, you need to learn to keep contact with your ponies mouth when you're riding 'actively', but it seems that the teaching of the little ones is done with no regard to the comfort of their ponies, and they're never going to learn to settle a pony by relaxing if they're taught to 'control' it's paces and steering entirely by pulling on the reins.
Is it just me who has a problem with this? Someone suggested to me it was the rise in popularity of dressage, where many horses look quite overbent, and people are trying to mimic this by holding their horses head in, rather than teaching it to carry itself correctly, but I'm not really convinced - good dressage riders have good, LIGHT contact with their horses accepting the bit - they need their horse to be super-responsive.
I'm considering stopping taking them to lessons, but then I'm not sure I'm the best teacher either :ashamed: and it's really nice for them to be able to ride in a school (especially with the weather we're having!) and ride with other children.

[coloredred]

I've seen the exact same thing happen but to much older children. All you hear is shorten your reins, never more leg or anything like that so you get ponies having their mouths pulled at to try to get them 'to go in a pretty outline' but they are never working properly, just having their mouths sawed at to get them down. None of them seem to know that a horse should be working from behind. The amount of times i've seen different people sit on a standing horse in the school and just saw sickens me to the point where i just can't watch anymore.

[africa]

Not all instructors are like this thankfully. It is a problem though. A girl at my riding club was taught by one instructor to have her reins so short she was almost holding the bit and another instructor who believed in seat and leg had a battle to get her to lengthen them.

You could try asking around to get the name of an instructor who believes in riding the classical way then suggest them to your riding club and they may get them in for some lessons. I know my club was always happy to be given names of different people who may teach clinics.

[sazzy925]

This is one of my pet hates. So many people these days seem to have no knowledge at all of anything besides rein use, it's amazing how many people who ride at our school who have been taught some where else to start with, have no idea how to use legs and seat effectively without hauling on the horse's mouth and whipping them if they argue - it achieves nothing, and it's not fair on the horses who have to put up with this.
We are so lucky with the instructor we have at my school, she won't allow anyone to use their reins until they can do rising trot with their hands still - they learn to balance properly and ride more effectively with their seat, so when they do get the reins they're far more inclined to use both seat and reins together, causing them to be a better more effective rider in the long run and is far kinder on the horses. I can safely say that we have no horses at my school with ruined mouths or dead to the leg, because of the way our instructor teaches.

[black crow]

Ive seen this a lot in schools, mostly with the lower qualified instructors, but it still happens.

There is too much of this 'armchair' seat riding and it majorly ****** me off. Kids dont learn to ride correctly being taught like that, and it includes heavy hands and tight reins. They are also placed on huge horses [sorry but a 4ft high kid on a 14.2hh is stupid] which honestly, if i had a child i wouldnt pay for a lesson if they were on a horse that was clearly too big for them and they couldnt get their feet past the flaps to even be effective enough.

Schools need to get back to the basics of classical riding, it can teach so much more.

A lot of school horses and ponies are very hollow, so many instructors will try to get kids to do the quick fix. Tight reins, lots of kicks to speed them up as its now more taboo to just whip and kick them to go.

[My Crazy Clan]

I think the instructors need to go back to collage!

When ever my sisters ride, I always make them loosen their reins, they now know why this is important.

[Horse Mad Mum]

such a shame, they go so much better when they are comfortable, my on good point in my riding is that I have alwasy been told I have good light hands!! Am much moreable to us emy seat now as well, seat first..hands second !! HMMX

[chescar]

My instructor is the total opposite and has me ride with contact but on a longer rein with lots and lots of leg.

If i ride on a too short rein, Troy overbends and evades the bit.

[piccolo]

Totally know what you mean. I often had lunge lesson amd normal ones in Australia, and it really improved my riding. When i went back, my instrucor was saying how long my reins were. He said it was bad ridng without short reins. Even as a novice i always hated it.
Now my more qualified instructor encrouges long and low work and not to rely on rein. Eg, jumping without them!:lol: Horse find it hard to go forward properly with really short reins.

Sometimes you do need short reins though.

[spirit]

i used to get shouted at alot to tighten my reins! i can totally see where you are coming from, and in my opinion the instructors do it because some of the ponies are little s*ds and b**ger off if they dont have tight reins. god yeah thats just brought back memories.. "i dont want to see any washing lines". i guess when kids are little instructors are happy if the ponies go in a straight line and dont instill the importance of riding with your bum.

riding has changed a bit, i think my mum was told to grip with her knees?? and of course european style vary (when i ride my friends spanish horses her french father always shouts at me to hold my hands higher)

but all in all the principles remain the same! how would these instructors manage riding without bits??

[spirit]

yeah its horrible once they get a hard mouth, too many people are too hard with their hands and use a too harsh bit. i had a mare who used to tank off with me but i learnt to control her with my seat where i could, next girl had her and if i remember rightly had to ride in a gag!

[Biddy]

The problem is, once they have a hard mouth, it's so difficult to get them back to how they had been.:shocked: When we were looking for ponies so many of the ones we went to see just pulled all of the time, which for a 4 year old tiny girl means she is really uncomfortable within a few minutes. In the end we bought a pony who hadn't been broken, and a pony who had just been ridden around the fields in a headcollar by an 18 year old (who was very tall, but like a wire - couldn't have weighed more than 9 stone!).:ashamed: It has meant that the girls have had a rather unorthodox way of learning to ride, as neither pony had had much of an education either, but I did lots of ground work with them, and both ponies have fabulous temperaments and are just lovely. We even broke Fern to harness one half term, and she took to it like a duck to water.:innocent:
This is why I so don't want to let the girls start hanging off their mouths when they're in lessons - they just don't need to.

[merlyn26]

hate this too - i am an instructor and although i want my riders to have a contact - i dont expect them to "pull the horses head into an outline" - that comes from riding into the contact and as the horse softens and comes more rounded - then you can gradulally shorten the reins up as the horses soft outline allows - you dont just snatch them up into a short contact - it comes from your legs and seat - i spend much of my time getting riders to get their legs underneath themselves rather than horrid armchair position - i too also get told off for long reins at times! - but this is my horse and i working together - what do you think?

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b389/merlyn26/nationalchampionsuede.jpg

[Biddy]

She(?)'s gorgeous, looks to be going so nicely - happy and relaxed - and seems to be stretching herself down nicely. Nice soft contact on her mouth - lovely. I tend to get my girls to carry their hands lower, but then they're young, and I find they balance themselves better that way, and if the pony spooks they have a better chance of staying on!
Lovely horse - how did you do on her?

[classicalfan]

I'm afraid the blame lies squarely with the BHS and the FEI. Bland phrases are used: 'keep the horse between hand and leg', 'keep the horse on the bit', 'keep the horse in an outline', but I'm afraid most instuctors don't actually know what that means and can't explain it to a student when they are asked.

[merlyn26]

She(?)'s gorgeous, looks to be going so nicely - happy and relaxed - and seems to be stretching herself down nicely. Nice soft contact on her mouth - lovely. I tend to get my girls to carry their hands lower, but then they're young, and I find they balance themselves better that way, and if the pony spooks they have a better chance of staying on!
Lovely horse - how did you do on her?

he's a he actually - :cheekywink: and he was national part bred welsh horse champion in hand and under saddle in 2008! woo hoo - best day of my life that! also i would hold my hands lower - but i have an extraordinarily long back and if i lower my hands to where they should be - my arms become straight which prevents me being as soft in my contact - i have bad conformation:cheekywink::lol:

[CyanideBreakfast]

Going to bring this discussion back in, if no one minds.
I've been riding in lessons on school horses for 11 years, though less the past year. When it is the kids(and I mean those aged 8-10 because the place I'm at doesn't accept children under 8 years for lessons for insurance reasons or something) and for the younger kids they are told keep your reinds short and kick to make the pony go and pull your hands in to make them stop or turn or whatever. I was taught like that too, but we're always told once they stop, soften your hands, once they turn, soften your hands. Some of the more advanced lessons get taught that actually they've been told wrong all these years and in my lesson for the past 3 years at least now we've been taught how to use our bodies to get the horse to turn. All our school horses are different. My instructors have been to training days at other yards and one place told my instructor that her schoolies don't get fed unless they work at least 6 hours a day, and they have to work an hour and half straight without a break. Our schoolies don't get fed in summer because they're all overweight but they get fed in winter no matter how much work they do. They never do more than an hour without a break, but my instructor tries to give them half an hour at a time. Each one is completely different and rides in a different way from the next and she's good at trying to teach us to ride them all the way they're meant to be ridden. There's only so much she can do in a half hour lesson with 5 of us there at once. For example, one of our school horses works better with a really heavy seat and a really firm contact. He's not nervous in that he's spooky of what's going on around him, he's nervous in that he likes to know he has a rider on his back, he likes a heavy seat with body weight to help him balance himself and he likes to be told he did well. If he thinks he didn't do something right he gets worried and then he doesn't do it right. Another school horse likes long soft reins, doesn't like her mouth to be played with at all ever. Younger kids, or people just starting out might not understand all this right away but on Jester (the first horse) they are told to take up a strong contact and sit deep. On Tango (the second horse) they are told long reins, soft hands, don't play with the reins.
I think it depends on where you go, where your instructors have been trained and the ponies they've got in the school. I won't deny that I want to learn how to ride a horse properly, and not just sit on a horse use leg to go forward, use my hands and seat in the appropriate proportion to make the horse slow down or change direction but I don't think everywhere is as bad as what you've experienced =/

[Partner]

I'm afraid the blame lies squarely with the BHS and the FEI. Bland phrases are used: 'keep the horse between hand and leg', 'keep the horse on the bit', 'keep the horse in an outline', but I'm afraid most instuctors don't actually know what that means and can't explain it to a student when they are asked.

I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment Classicalfan.

Also the exam system in the BHS only teaches a candidate to pass the exam which entails riding a particular type of (school) horse to look a certain way or 'improved' within a short space of time so there is no time to 'school' the horse into the shape, only to 'put' it into the shape. I can understand the practical reasons why this is the case but it does not produce instructors that understand progressive training of the horse or rider, or how to deal with horses other than 'school' horses or outside of the school environment. I see a lot of very young people becoming qualified to teach (and some young riders/trainers are very talented but they are more the exception) without the breadth of experience necessary or the desire to continue their education that will make them fully understand the subtler aspects of riding a horse into self carriage.

In contrast to the short contact obsession though, I equally see a long and low obsession - with horses working with a straight back leg so flexing from the stifle rather than the hock (momentum from behind rather than power) and on the forehand with the 3rd vertebrae highest instead of the poll. Don't get me wrong - correctly ridden, long and low is a very useful tool for warm up, cool down, gymnastic development and stretching as reward, but is still a form of hyperflexion and is just as misunderstood as the example in the original post.

[Biddy]

The thing is, this isn't a matter of 'riding school ponies' that the instructors know - this is my daughters on their 2 ponies, with a variety of instructors who instruct at the riding club they go to. Not all of the instructors are obsessed with really short reins, but the majority do seem to be - and I've never heard any of them to tell anyone to lengthen their reins, even when one of the children was virtually dragging the pony round by the bit-rings (I have decided to boycot that instructors lessons....). We have recently joined a different riding club too, so I'll be keen to see if there's a difference in the methods of their instructors, as they use different ones. Lets hope so!

[Roo]

In my lesson, I'm told to have them tight (ish) but hold them very tight between my little fingers (as my horse moves his head around and they end up very loose.

But this is only at a walk?

When I was riding on the roads, I had my reins pretty long at a walk and shortend them to trot (and we didn't have any problems) yet when on a feild, a shorter hold gives me more controll, I'm then more relaxed and when Rocky gives in we arn't going to canter he is fine so in some cases a 'short' ish hold is okay?

[beks the artist]

It's funny how things have changed! I started riding in 1986. I was always taught to grip with your knees, ride with your seat. We did many, many excersises without reins - including jumping!!! I have a very strong seat now and rarely get unseated or fall off! However I have started regular lessons again with a freelance instructor after 10 + years of not having lessons on my own horses (just went into happy hacking) and I have found I now have the 'incorrect' seat!! (although my leg position has always been rubbish)

I have now been told:

1) To have my legs slightly more back
2) To stop gripping with my knees!! and grip with my back of my calf and get my thigh less rounded
3) Hold my hands more up and forward
4) Hold the reins slightly more tight
5) not to ride from the seat - I tend to try and push my horses along through the seat

This that have stayed the same:
1) heels down
2) thumbs on top
3) back straight etc etc

I just find it really interesting how riding has changed over the past 20 years and I am having to go back to basics again!

[CyanideBreakfast]

The thing is, this isn't a matter of 'riding school ponies' that the instructors know - this is my daughters on their 2 ponies, with a variety of instructors who instruct at the riding club they go to. Not all of the instructors are obsessed with really short reins, but the majority do seem to be - and I've never heard any of them to tell anyone to lengthen their reins, even when one of the children was virtually dragging the pony round by the bit-rings (I have decided to boycot that instructors lessons....). We have recently joined a different riding club too, so I'll be keen to see if there's a difference in the methods of their instructors, as they use different ones. Lets hope so!

That's fair enough. If it's your own horse and not a school pony then maybe instructors need to find time to get to know how to ride your horse if they're going to teach you how to improve on it. That riding instructor sounds ridiculous though...riding with reins that short. I hope your new instructors are good. I've just found out how dramatic a difference the right instructor can make o n horse and rider.
For the horse I look after I've had 3 private lessons focusing on improving because I know I have a hell of a lot to do. The first said I needed to lengthen my reins so my horse could stretch out his head (he tends to carry himself with his nose in the clouds) so I lengthened my reins not that they were particularly short anyway (personally I don't think longer reinds made much of a difference to how he carried himself but I did what I was told). The second was with someone different who didn't say anything about my position which I was a bit miffed about because I didn't know if I'd improved or not. The 3rd I found was actually the best. I learned most from her. But she told me to keep short reins when riding because I lack enough control of my upper body to ride with long reins, which seemed fair enough and she showed me an acceptable length for my horse so that the reins are short enough so I have a good contact and control but not so short that I'm pulling on his mouth (because he does have a soft mouth and goes backwards and upwards when you pull on him too hard).

[Biddy]

It is amazing how much it's all changed - I keep thinking about having some lessons myself, but will probably get too frustrated!!! I still think the majority of the 'older' more classical seat 'rules' make sense.
My yonger daughter has even lost a certain amount of confidence through it - she gets told to shorten her reins, Fern thinks something's up (to her it feels like Phili's frightened) so gets on her toes, tenses up, which makes her bouncier and less comfortable to ride, Phili feels like she doesn't have as much control because Fern's tense, and gets upset, so Fern then gets more upset because she thinks Phili must be frightened because there is a Dragon / Lion / pony-eating monster chasing them....... Once she drops and relaxes her hands, Fern relaxes..... Fern is only young, but she is so good, and doesn't need to be 'got hold of' to control her. As Phili is tiny we've taught Fern lots with voice aids, so she'll respond to Phili really nicely, but again, if Phili is getting uptight, her voice gets squeaky, and Fern knows something's up. Fern is only 11hh, so I can't really ride her myself to teach her not to worry about a short hold, and to be honest, I don't see why she should get used to having such a tight hold.

[Spockky boy]

When I have taught I've never encouraged the riders to take a tight contact, I've always tried to make them ride with the legs and seat, to try and create more impulsion and get the horse 'into the bridle' as it were, and it seems the riders who I have taught have felt the difference, and their horses soften, strides become longer and horse/rider more relaxed.

I've taught Osci off here briefly last weekend, so shes had a taster of my teaching, not sure what she makes of it though! (Although I think she and my OH said I should teach mroe often as I am a natural? lol!!!). I know with her horse though, the tighter the rein the more he back off and becomes very hollow. Where as Spock just pulls and goes majorly onto the forehand when contact is tightened!

[lil_legs]

When I used to teach at my old job, I was forever telling people to do both shorter and longer reins.

Now I used to have some people that would ride with reins that were so long there was no point in having them. Also people who rode with reins so tight the horse was so uncomfortable.

I had one girl who was so intent on riding her pony with such short reins that the pony in the end got frightened everytime she picked up the reins and would bolt off!!

I have always been taught to have the reins so that you can just feel their mouths. No tighter, very often I have ridden with longer, so that when training younger horses htey learn from the beginning how to bend around my leg properly, and listen to my seat. And gradually took the contact up a bit shorter.

Now with Jasper, and the girl who teaches me every so often now, she is constantly telling me to shorten my reins, and sit up! When i ride him with longer reins I don't tip forward. I have always ridden him as I was taught before hand so that i just have enough contact should I need it, but generally have him working off my legs and seat.

Now with shorter reins I find it difficult and it feels very foreign to me. So although I do my best when she has taught me to keep my hands as light as possible yet having the shorter reins I have then just reverted back to how I know he goes best when she isn't around haha!

I wasn't paying for the lessons, and used her generally for my position rather than his way of going anyway as I knew what he had to work on and just carried on as I was.

She thought all was great because he was going better everytime she saw him and I was pleased with her nagging at my position haha!

I don't have her often enough to upset Jasper's way of going and although I have told her how I have found is best to ride him, she is adamant that the shorter reins are better, and has also come out with that in a dressage test I would be marked down for it.

Now if I had wshing line reins then yes fair enough, but I feel with the slightly longer reins, it would be more obvious the horse is carrying itself rather than me holding it up! Plus he is leaning on the bit anymore, and isn't on the forehand or at all bunched up.

People teach differently, as annoying as it is, I know to me that it is wrong to haave super short reins, and I just think about that when I am teaching.

[Bek B]

I have been taught by a few BHS qualified instructors and I have yet to find one who can actually tell me the theory behind the things you do.

I've tried many in an attempt to find one who can explain exactly what's happening from a biomechnical point of view and also a psychological point of view. I'm still looking...

I've had to resort to books. My library is becoming quite extensive! Perhaps it's my scientific mind, but 'just do this because that's how it's done' has never been something I can subscribe to. I need to know why. I've learnt so much by reading and watching videos, but an instructor who knows their stuff would be fantastic.

[Bek B]

[QUOTE=beks the artist;87218]2) To stop gripping with my knees!! and grip with my back of my calf and get my thigh less rounded
QUOTE]

I'm suprised your instructor advises gripping with the calf. Out of interest, what is her reason for this? (I'm a happy hacker trying to improve too, so I feel your pain, lol!)