Need to make drastic changes for Turk *pics added*

[vels mum]

After doing my Velmer diary, I think ive come to the conclusion that in those months I was desperately trying to put weight on Vel I also was overfeeding Turk, I think ive got a bit of a thing about horses getting too thin after Vels ordeal, almost a stupid mind blank towards feeding.
Now dont get me wrong I know when a horse is overweight and Turk most certainly is but Vel eats so much (has done since the choke) that I feed Turk too much thinking he nees it when he quite obviously doesnt!

He has been scouring lately, he is not eating anything I think could be causing it, no sudden change in his routine and he has had a worm count just done and no eggs were present.
Although he is loose he is not looosing weight but does seem to have a sore belly as he is pretty grumpy. He is on Pink Powder but he is still not poo'ing properly. Could just be an old horse thing but Id like to get weight off him, also cant be doing his back any good carrying the extra pounds.
So back to the drawing boards, lets look at diet!

His turnout is a heathery hill so no grass at all atm.

He gets ad-lib hay in the field from 8am - 4pm he does not gorge himself and does leave the hay for a while whilst turned out but does spend a lot of time at it (but he will need quite a lot of forage being older), then gets one large haynet (he was getting 2 up till 2 weeks ago) in the stable to do him till morning.

Breakfast is 3 handfuls of Just Grass (Chaff no added molases)
1 scoop of speedibeet (small)
he was getting 1 small scoop of pasture mix but ive cut that out.
2 scoops of pink powder.

Bedtime (9pm)
3 handfuls of Just Grass
1 small scoop of speedibeet
2 scoops of codlavine joint suppliment.
Was getting 2 scoops of pasture mix which ive cut out

Should I be adding or reducing anything?

Ill get some pics of him this morning to show you his weight.
Any suggestions welcome on diet and his scouring, I just dont know what could be making him loose and have put it down to old age, Im not fretting to much as he is not loosing weight with it. Although I know scouring is quite serious.

Thanks peeps xxx

Pictures of him this morning, anyone welcome to comment on his weight!
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n249/helphorses/turk%202010/20100211_2.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n249/helphorses/turk%202010/20100211_15.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n249/helphorses/turk%202010/20100211_8.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n249/helphorses/turk%202010/20100211_16.jpg
As you can see he is quite dirty behind, he gets washed pretty much daily, his poo isnt running out him like water its just not as compact as it should be.
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n249/helphorses/turk%202010/20100211_7.jpg

[XenaWarriorPrincess]

Sounds like you are doing the right thing, ive recently cus anni right down as she is getting wider and wider, when i got her she was so backwards and scrawny she needed building up and now she is built up again i hadnt reduced it accordingly. She literally gets half a cup of suregrow, a spoon of spedibeet and a tiny handful of chaff now to keep her quiet while the others are fed!

A thought for if reducing the feed doesnt work is have you tried ringing the feed company lines and seeing what they would suggest?

xx

[Smurf]

You have cut out the pasture mix which would contain the sugars allowing him to put on weight. we have had such a cold winter you would think he and saff!! would have lost weight keeping themselves warm. What about alittle walk everyday to use up some energy? Poss reducing his hay. If he is not doing any exercise then all the extra hay he eats will be piling on the weight?? Sorry not much help today, im getting the cold the boys have :(:(

[black crow]

Check the MJ levels of everything. You need to slower these as if it doesnt get used up, then it turns into fat. A lot of the gras chaffs are surprisingly high, so look for maybe something like a Lite version.

Soaking the nutrients out of the hay would help if it is possible, thats just the trouble of adlib, they can eat more than what they need. If anything the hay will be contributing to it , is there any way you can manage it without ad lib hay, or maybe less out there?

Please dont put down the runs to being old age. This is one thing that a vet did about Scottie, if id have stuck with her 'advice' he would have died. It can often be for little reason, but othertimes it is very serious. In older horses, the greater chance is that their teeth are struggling. He may still have all his teeth and some are pretty good, but they can still cause this problem. I would be tempted to take him off the hay for a couple of days gradually and see how he fares with a hay substitute if you dont get the vet out to look at him.

[vels mum]

His teeth were done less than 6 months ago, I really wouldnt like to cut his hay out altogether as he has no acess to grass, what would you suggest BC as a hay replacer? He cant get haylage as he gets serious stomach problems on that.
I cant think of anything else that may be causing him to scour apart from being stabled at night, I know if he is stabled more than over night this causes him to get loose.
The chaff really isnt anything more than dried grass, nothing else added to it.
I cant restrict his hay intake during the day as the hay bale is always in the field, the sheep use it too and Vel and Dollie and hugo go in that field at night si need it also.

Only other altenative would be putting him in a seperate fild during the day, which I suppose could be done

[black crow]

To be honest, he does look a bit over weight, but it looks like his back muscles have relaxed, which is giving him more of the belly look. It happens to them all in the end, or it can be brought on quicker by things like cushings. But i know he's in his 20's so it would fit in right with him losing his muscles. He doesnt have the bulging look about him, and i dont see big rolls of fat on him, for his age he's nicely covered, but i can understand you not wanting him to be over going into spring.

I'd steer clear of haylage as it will probably make his runs worse. If he gets stressed then it might be contributing to it. There are a lot of internal issues that can cause the runs, so a gut imbalance may not always be the issue. The main cause in older horses is their teeth lacking the edge they once had - even though they have been done, they lose the surface so their chew ability isnt as great. Scottie has his teeth done every 4 months because of this, even though his teeth arent growing that much now.

For a hay replacer, something like a chaff or a pelleted fibre, with less sugar then sugarbeet [even speedibeet can help to add weight] to literally give him hay in a bucket. It may not work, but reducing the long fibres can really make a difference to them. However to give him a better chance of digestion, you'd need to give him a few feeds a day to encourage the little and often routine. If he's stabled over night you'd be able to do this, it's just if he is living out you wont want Vel eating it! Obviously this depends on if he is struggling with the hay [regarding his runs] but if not, then i would leave the hay in for him, and would try to limit how much he can get during the day or soak it.

The fact he has weight on him says to me it may not be an issue of a gut imbalance where he cant digest nutrients, which is why im feeling it may be something else. Not trying to worry you obviously, it just wouldnt add up totally. Prolonged runs can be a problem, so i would be tempted to get a vet out to do atleast a blood test to see what his levels are like, so say if he has too much protien in his system, you know better where to target. You could do a chew test, just basically see how long he takes to eat a mouthful of hay. Might seem a little odd, but prolonged chewing might just be causing the issue. Just throwing ideas out there lol

[Smurf]

Dont cut his hay out, could you not ration it in accordance to his weight, height amount of work he is doing?? My boys go out during the day with 2 sections of hay, once they have finished that they occasionally graze on what little grass there is but they seem to play witheach other alot more instead of standing filling their faces. When they come in they get ad lib hay during the night to last them till they get mucked out, then more hay till they go out. Have you had the vet out to take a sample?? or blood test??

[Smurf]

To be honest, he does look a bit over weight, but it looks like his back muscles have relaxed, which is giving him more of the belly look.

Agree with BC :D

I would still contact the vet

[kiagirl]

I would cut out the speedi beet. I have always been told that you feed this for weight gain. Can you double net his hay so that he doesn't eat as much but it lasts just as long?

[vels mum]

Vet is coming out tomorrow to trim Dollie and Hugo's feet, so will get some bloods pulled on Turk whilst he is there.
Can BC, Peerielee or anyone tell me exactly what to test his blood for, my vet might already know but I just want to make sure he tests everything that needs to be checked (he is just a GP not equine specialist).

Gong back to haynets put out in the field will be tricky, the sheep need to eat too and they are reluctant to come down whilst the horses are there, if hay is put out innets they horses will eat it all and sheep will get none.
I may look at putting him in a different park through the day and put Hugo in with him for company and leave Vel and Dollie to the ad-lib hay.

Kiagirl, I did think about cutting out the speedibeet, but then he wouldbe getting no hard feed at all, its such a small amout he is getting, its just enough to damper down his codlavine and pink powder.

[black crow]

For a general look into his blood, they will look at things like Glucose, Blood cell count, Protein, Sodium, LHD, LDL, GLHD, etc levels. They can then tell what may be the problem. I.e low protein levels may suggest lack of nutrients and calories, a high blood count may show diabetes etc

[vels mum]

Ok thanks Ill ask for a general blood test to be done.

[Smurf]

I wonder if you can get some kind of probiotic?? for horses. Something is obviously happening or not happening in his intestines, ask the vet if there is any way of testing the bacteria in his gut??

[menaimiss]

Speedibeet is not a conditioning feed, it is a low calorie Fibre as all of the sugar has been removed.
Have you tried soaked cubes to provide fibre if long fibre is a problem for him?

sorry I'm new to the forum so only just catching up on things, i'm not familiar with everyones horses yet ;)

[black crow]

Peerielee; There are many pro and prebiotics available for horses on the market. Turk is on pink powder which is a short term digestive aid. There are many products out there which include Yea sacc, which is a yeast that helps restore the gut flora balance.


Fed at higher levels, speedi beet helps to add weight to horses. Although not a condititoning feed, like many feeds, it can add be used to add weight and condition, at the same time it can assist in weight loss if fed correctly.

[funkyboots]

from the other side of the fence....lol...hes happy and if you can't be happy whats the point. i need to put wieght on merry (under the hair) so i giv her a couple of handfuls in the morning a lunch and just a big haynet for tea/eve/earlymorning..well humans aint meant to eat heavy before bed..lol...and when i tried her morning and evening feed, she got poorly! he gotta keep warm somehow!

[vels mum]

Turk is stabled every night and most days rugged unless it mild and not raining.

Just found out Westgate labs dont test for fluke worm, mums goat died recently from Braxy due to the frost and the post mortem showed liver fluke, also her sheep have had it (but are now wormed for it).
Should I get vet to test for fluke worm? Would this be causing Turk to scour???

[Smurf]

Yes horses can carry the fluke worm, its usually at its worst in Autumn and in wet conditions, which in shetland can be anytime!!!. The snail carries it form place to place and they canlay dormant for 1 year in the mud. One of our rams died from fluke, luckily we caught it quickly enough and all the others were treated and fine.

[vels mum]

Ahhhhh omg mums sheep had fluke worm too they have been treated but the horses are sharing the field with them, would equest wormer kill fluke? Turk was done with this last time I wormed them
Would fluke worm cause Turk to scour?
Should I get vet to test Turk for fluke worm?
Lee - Aparently Westside vets do worm counts for £6 per horse.

[Horseylover]

What I was going to suggest has pretty much been covered by everyone else, but I also noticed one thing about the feed your giving him. My share pony had loose droppings due to a Vitamin & Mineral deficiency. I'm just throwing ideas at you really, but Just Grass contains no added vits and mins, neither does Speedi Beet, and I know your feeding him Pink Powder but that doesn't contain extra vits and mins either.

My share pony benefited hugely with a fully balanced vitamin and mineral supplement from our vet, but I'm sure pretty much any supplement like this would do the job.

Also, I think Fluke Worm would cause him to scour. If it is this then a wormer like Equimax would probably do the job, although it's probably best to check :)

Anyway, hope this helps and good luck with him! :)

[vels mum]

Thanks horseylover.
He does have a lick in his stable, its a salt and mineral lick which he uses a lot.
What kind of suppliment could I use to provide him with what he needs?

Ill suggest it to the vet tomorrow.

[ness]

Our Y.O is talking about having this done to save worming the horses. How is it done and what does it entail? Also how much does it cost-is it done on every horse or just on the field? Thanks!:)

[vels mum]

Our Y.O is talking about having this done to save worming the horses. How is it done and what does it entail? Also how much does it cost-is it done on every horse or just on the field? Thanks!:)

I got mine done at Westgate Labs, seems a popular choice, you can contact them through the internet and they will send you the kit, little plastic boxes which you put the poo in, send it off to them and you get results back in roughly 2 days.
I was £11 each of my horses but if you were getting a larger number tested it might be cheaper.
The results will show how many eggs are found and whether you need to worm them.

I just found out though my local vets does worm testing for £6 a horse so I will be using him in the future.

[Tio]

Fluke worms are a trematode which moxidectin (equest) will not kill. The easiest thing you will be able to get to treat is a praziquantel wormer - equest pramox, equitape or equimax. Worm counts usually only check for roundworms. I would ring your vet for advice if you think this is the problem.

BC, what are LHD and GLHD?

[black crow]

GLDH is an enzyme in the liver, heart etc. They dont usually show up as any different or irregular on blood count tests unless the horse has an infection, liver problems, disease etc. Scotties was elevated when he had his bloods done 2 years ago

Apologies, it should have been LDH, i cant remember the full name, but it is another enzyme that changes lactate to pyruvate in such things as heart muscle. If a LDH level is high it can mean same things as GLHD, which would also show liver disease, clots, vitamin deficiencies etc

Im sure theres a better explanation on the net as i just had to check my vet book to make sure it was pyruvate not lipoic acid :lol:

xx

[vels mum]

Fluke worms are a trematode which moxidectin (equest) will not kill. The easiest thing you will be able to get to treat is a praziquantel wormer - equest pramox, equitape or equimax. Worm counts usually only check for roundworms. I would ring your vet for advice if you think this is the problem.

BC, what are LHD and GLHD?

I did Turk with equest and Equitape tail end of last year, my vet says this should have killed any fluke worm present.

Ok so had vet out this morning, firstly he looked at Turks weight, he says he is not overweight at all, just that his back has dropped giving the impression of a larger stomach, he has no fatty deposits and could feel his ribs, so he is quite happy with his weight, he also checked his teeth which he said were very good for his age and no sharp edges. He pulled bloods and is gonna test them for abnormalities, he also took a stool sample and will check for fluke as I was concerned.
He suggested Gastic ulsers but we are going to wait for the blood results and take it from there.

[black crow]

Good news so far!! xx

[easyrider]

i dont know what size scoop you use but be careful of you speedibeet to feed ratio i think it shouldn to be more than a third but check the bag
is he well wormed? please see my reply on BC worming plan thread
scouring constantly is not a good sign

[vels mum]

i dont know what size scoop you use but be careful of you speedibeet to feed ratio i think it shouldn to be more than a third but check the bag
is he well wormed? please see my reply on BC worming plan thread
scouring constantly is not a good sign

Im fully aware that constant scouring is not a good sign which is why im doing everything I can possibly do to get to the bottom of it.
The speedibeet I make like soup or do you mean watch Im not overfeeding him speedibeet, cause he really doesnt get much at all defo under the recommended amout for his weight if anything.

This is the follow up thread to this one if you want to see where I am atm with it all. :o
http://www.equine-world.co.uk/horse-forums/showthread.php?t=7940