substi-bute‏?? (any bute substitute) At loss with Basil.

[casper_cb]

Hi,
I was wondering if anyones had an experience of using Substi-Bute. It's meant to be the strongest none veterinary "bute" product on the market that is competition legal and does not cause liver damage.

I'm looking for bute substitutes with the aim of being able to compete Basil in dressage. He'll only go lame after 15m minutes of hard work, sometimes. He's got an innoperable injury to his medial collateral ligament in his hoof. He goes hopping lame after 15 minutes of work, usually if we do too many canter, trot canter transitions however it occasional just goes, he's happy to work on it once lame, he walks it off in 5 minutes then is sound again fot 15 minutes. It's a mystery to the vets too!

He's had the time off, 6 months, remedial shoeing, no difference. He loves being worked, loves schooling in the arena, prefers schooling to hacking. Loves competing, he's a ponce and a show off!

The vet was the one that suggested using bute (she also mentioned having all the nerves into the hoof cut so he has no feeling but still has the motor reflexes, so moves perfectly well, just feels no pain, it's often done for navicular - seems too extreme for me though- however it is competion legal). The ligament itself is not going to get worse or better, it just causes a twinge of pain that makes him want to move differently, kind of like when we go over on an ankle, sore for 5 minutes, the OK, but he still wants to work. On bute it numbs it and he works through it. Obviously he can't compete on bute, so was wondering about Substi-bute.

Many thanks. Comments, suggestions welcome.

[casper_cb]

A video of Basil going lame out competing. He started sound then went lame, I knew he'd gone lame but he was happy to work on it, I decided to complete the test in the hope the judge might pull me up and shed some light on where she thought he was lame - she did not notice he was lame!! *BLIND JUDGE ALERT* Actually got a really good mark and was well placed. Obviously withdrew before SJ.
YouTube - Basil Lame

This is one of him going lame schooling.
YouTube - Basil going lame

[black crow]

Good on you for backing away from the theory!

Although it can be extremely beneficial to have the nerves severed in the hoof, it can mean that any problem or injury later on could go unnoticed! Id save that for a last option if anything!

How would you feel competing him with the chance of someone having a pick at him going lame [if they actually noticed it?]
You've gone through such thorough things with him, its not like you just trying to keep him competing.
Have never used Substi-Bute so i will be watching this thread!

[Thingamyjig]

yes ive used substi-bute, there is a 7 day one, a syringe impact type and a maintenance one, all pretty self explanatory...i used the 7 day one when Star was lame after he tripped and hurt his hoof... it didnt seem to work as quick as Bute, took 2 days for him to be a less sore BUT of course he might have just recovered without it and it might not have worked at all lol.. my cousin swears by it and wont use anything else.

[casper_cb]

Thank you both. We'll give it a try.
BC - I'm not fond of the nerve severing for the same reason, if he were to get an abcess in the hoof or a nasty puncture wound neither he or us would have a clue untill it either came out the coronet or his hoof actually started rotting away! Eurghhh - not worth thinking about.

Our main problem is that he's not happy being a field ornament, he gallops around if he can see us when off work and paces the fence line till he gets human attention. Now he's in work, all be it 15 mins a day he's much calmer and better to handle. He can't go on loan/ be sold/ shared, A) because of his lameness issues and B) because he won't load, travel or be left anywhere without a companion. I'd never sell him. He's a joy to ride, I loose all sence of time when on him, he floats, I have to wear my eventing watch which goes besurk to let me know it's time to stop working him.

With regard to him going lame and others seeing, I think nearly everyone where I'd compete knows about Basil's lameness problems so it would not be a problem. Also if I felt him go lame, I'd stop instantly. At competition he only needs 5/10 minutes to warm up, they say the horse walks the whole time you travel, so 40mins walking, stand for 15 whilst getting number and tacking up, hop on, trot, leg yeild, canter on both reins, into the ring. That's what we did last winter.

On a positive not last year we did build up over a period of 4 month to being able to work him for an hour without him going lame, working him moderatly hard, so fingers crossed we'll build up to it again. He'll never XC again and no SJ for the foreseeable future.

Liphooks, (the equine hospitals) ever pesemistic view on Basil's lameness is just starting to grate and our local vet asking what we were planning to do should he not be able to work got both mum and I thinking. Truth be told, he's not happy not being exercised, he's not a fan of grazing and no mental stimulation, you can't hack as it would be unfair if he were to go lame to make him continue for an exteneded period of time to get him home, he loves being ridden but to what avail, to keep him happy?! He's just too beautiful to be PTS.

[black crow]

Its really sad that its happened to him, as he sounds like a total star. I love watching the videos [even when hes gone lame] as he has such a lovely movement

I think you know him best, and you know when to push to the limit. Hopefully that limit can be pushed back a bit, like you say. I think as long as your by his side, he will have a use.
I would sometimes agree that PTS is a good option for a horse that no longer enjoys being ridden or cant do it, but the fact that every one of your reasons are very sensible and well thought out and very understandable, then i think at the moment if there is something that keeps him happy and content, then keep on with it!

I'd advise No-Bute, however as you will already be aware, it isnt the strongest bute substitute out there, so i think it would have very little effect on him

I really hope you both keep going on together, and i think your managing it all very well. Although i know people will disagree with this.. vets are not always right. You know him, you do whats best :)

[casper_cb]

I'd advise No-Bute, however as you will already be aware, it isnt the strongest bute substitute out there, so i think it would have very little effect on him


We currently use Buteless High Strength with Oscar, v. simular to No-Bute, we found it to have slightly more effect, Basil's not on any meds at the moment. Having said that, if my backs bad, I'll take an equine dosage of buteless and i've not grown hairs on my chest or had any strange side effects so not sure how strong it actually is. Bute on the other hand knocks one out, I've not taken it but know people that have.

Thank you so much for your input/ advice BC - it's always much appreciated.

(p.s. is the spell check coming back? my spelling's appauling. LOL)

[black crow]

LOL! Good heavens, i think i might try some no-bute and see what thats like :lol:

Not a problem! Its such a great thing to see, an owner prepared to do anything :)

I hope so! I have to use my browser spell check.. when i remember :D

[janie]

Hi: was searching the internet for an alternative to Bute and came across an interesting product called Boswellia Serrata. Check it out - it could be a good substitute as I've read some good recommendations.