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  #65  
Old 19th April 2012
Barry G Barry G is offline
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The table of falls at each fence is interesting and it highlights the fact that there is something implicit about the design of Bechers (the drop?) which makes it more dangerous to jump.

Lurking in my mind still is the issue of whether the Grand National is a race or a spectacle
in which the number of fallers is an important component in what the punters pay to see.

Even on TV the impact of horse and rider falling at speed does not come across if the focus of the camera is directed at the leaders in the race.

A statistion could spend hours pouring over the figures and perhaps he should.
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  #66  
Old 20th April 2012
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Lorraine Lorraine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cancara View Post
The responses to my post so far have totally bypassed the fact that Bechers is the most deadly fence on the course as illustrated by this from Wiki- I never trust it on sight but initial perusal of the links suggest that the stats are accurate and given the significant hidden drop I am really not surprised.



I am a Grand National supporter overall, but I still say that fence should go.
If you click on Becher's Brook link in the table above, and add up the fatalities on the linked page the fatalities at Becher's add up to 10 not 14. Similarly if you click on the link for Canal Turn, it shows 2 fatalities not 4, so not sure which figures are accurate.

However, if you add up the fatalities listed in the table above on the wikipedia page you can see:

Fence 1 & 17 it adds up to 4 fatalites. One of these was "2006 - Tyneandthyneagain - Fence 1 & 17 - Continued running riderless until falling later, was diagnosed with a spinal injury and euthanised." He actually fell at the first fence - the later fall was at another fence, not fence 1 but they have attributed it to fence 1. I doubt he would have continued running and jumping if he had sustained the injury at Fence 1, so it was NOT this fence that caused his fatality. I would also say the fact he was riderless was the direct cause of his death, not the fence.

Fence 4 & 20 it adds up 7 fatalilties - one of these was "McKelvey Fence 4 & 20 - Unseated - Continued running riderless but collided with a barrier and was unable to regain his feet." He unseated his rider at Fence 20. I would say the fact he was riderless and collided with the barrier caused his death, not the fence - especially as he didn't fall at the fence but unseated his rider.

Fence 8 & 24 it adds up to 4 fatalities - one of these was "2002 - The Last Fling - Fence 8 & 24 - Continued running riderless until falling later."

They have attributed the above fatalities to the fences, but the horses were riderless at the time. Therefore these figures for the fences are misleading/inaccurate.

They only have one where the Fence # is "running riderless" - Synchronised, but other riderless fatalities on the list they have attributed to fences rather than running riderless.

You also have: "1998 - Griffins Bar - Fell at the fifth fence but the vet reported his fatal injury was sustained while galloping riderless afterwards." and "Goguenard - 3 & 19 - Unseated - Injured in a mle and euthanised." - so he was riderless when he fatally injured himself.

How many of the other fatalities where comments aren't given have been attributed to fences where the horses were in fact riderless at the time of their fatal injuries? Or their falls due to riderless horses impeding them?

I think figures like this need far more research/accuracy than is given there. Riderless horse fatalities listed separately to those fatalities as a direct result of a fall, fatalities due to horses being brought down by riderless horses separate and horses brought down by fallers with riders listed separately. Then you'd get more of a picture of whether it was the fence itself that caused the fatality directly, the number of horses jumping at the time resulting in one horse bringing down another at a fence causing the fatality, riderless horses impeding others that caused the fatality or riderless horses that were the fatality and be able to do a far better anaylsis than is given in that table.

In 1967 there was a huge pile up at fence 7 as a rider-less horse cut across the Grand National runners.

According To Pete was brought down by another horse, not due to fence 6 & 22 which he jumped as it is given in that table. That's like saying if you were driving in a car down the motorway and the car in front of you slammed his breaks on because there was an obstable in the way causing you to run into the back of him and kill yourself, that the motorway killed you - whereas it was you driving too close behind the car in front that killed you, not the motorway. If you had been driving at a safe distance behind you would have been able to swerve or stop in time to avoid hitting the car in front of you and killing yourself.
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  #67  
Old 20th April 2012
Barry G Barry G is offline
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As Lorraine's analysis tends to show, the height and design of the fence is not necessarily the cause of a death fall - the influence of a riderless and hence rudderless horse is equally important.

But exaclty how does one stop a rudderless/riderless horse interfering with the rest of the field??????
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  #68  
Old 20th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry G View Post
But exaclty how does one stop a rudderless/riderless horse interfering with the rest of the field??????
Have a sniper inbetween each fence to get them or the equivelant of a stinger to throw out

It's the loose horses I am always focussed on when watching it praying they jump straight and not diagonally to take anyone else out

As has been said it's a race and any changes made to the course the jockeys will change the way the ride accordingly to get the greatest chance of winning so just because you change something doesn't mean it will work.

Less starters, that in itself will reduce the risk of so many loose horses as there is less of them to start with.

Having someone on a horse trying to herd them off if they are at the back could be interesting. I can't think that there is any guaranteed way of stopping a loose horse sadly
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  #69  
Old 20th April 2012
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How about shaking a bucket of feed?! lol
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  #70  
Old 20th April 2012
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Lol yeah I thought that too but then thought the leaders might turn round and head back the way they came!
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  #71  
Old 20th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorraine View Post
If you click on Becher's Brook link in the table above, and add up the fatalities on the linked page the fatalities at Becher's add up to 10 not 14. Similarly if you click on the link for Canal Turn, it shows 2 fatalities not 4, so not sure which figures are accurate.

However, if you add up the fatalities listed in the table above on the wikipedia page you can see:

Fence 1 & 17 it adds up to 4 fatalites. One of these was "2006 - Tyneandthyneagain - Fence 1 & 17 - Continued running riderless until falling later, was diagnosed with a spinal injury and euthanised." He actually fell at the first fence - the later fall was at another fence, not fence 1 but they have attributed it to fence 1. I doubt he would have continued running and jumping if he had sustained the injury at Fence 1, so it was NOT this fence that caused his fatality. I would also say the fact he was riderless was the direct cause of his death, not the fence.

Fence 4 & 20 it adds up 7 fatalilties - one of these was "McKelvey Fence 4 & 20 - Unseated - Continued running riderless but collided with a barrier and was unable to regain his feet." He unseated his rider at Fence 20. I would say the fact he was riderless and collided with the barrier caused his death, not the fence - especially as he didn't fall at the fence but unseated his rider.

Fence 8 & 24 it adds up to 4 fatalities - one of these was "2002 - The Last Fling - Fence 8 & 24 - Continued running riderless until falling later."

They have attributed the above fatalities to the fences, but the horses were riderless at the time. Therefore these figures for the fences are misleading/inaccurate.

They only have one where the Fence # is "running riderless" - Synchronised, but other riderless fatalities on the list they have attributed to fences rather than running riderless.

You also have: "1998 - Griffins Bar - Fell at the fifth fence but the vet reported his fatal injury was sustained while galloping riderless afterwards." and "Goguenard - 3 & 19 - Unseated - Injured in a mle and euthanised." - so he was riderless when he fatally injured himself.

How many of the other fatalities where comments aren't given have been attributed to fences where the horses were in fact riderless at the time of their fatal injuries? Or their falls due to riderless horses impeding them?

I think figures like this need far more research/accuracy than is given there. Riderless horse fatalities listed separately to those fatalities as a direct result of a fall, fatalities due to horses being brought down by riderless horses separate and horses brought down by fallers with riders listed separately. Then you'd get more of a picture of whether it was the fence itself that caused the fatality directly, the number of horses jumping at the time resulting in one horse bringing down another at a fence causing the fatality, riderless horses impeding others that caused the fatality or riderless horses that were the fatality and be able to do a far better anaylsis than is given in that table.

In 1967 there was a huge pile up at fence 7 as a rider-less horse cut across the Grand National runners.

According To Pete was brought down by another horse, not due to fence 6 & 22 which he jumped as it is given in that table. That's like saying if you were driving in a car down the motorway and the car in front of you slammed his breaks on because there was an obstable in the way causing you to run into the back of him and kill yourself, that the motorway killed you - whereas it was you driving too close behind the car in front that killed you, not the motorway. If you had been driving at a safe distance behind you would have been able to swerve or stop in time to avoid hitting the car in front of you and killing yourself.
Not got time to go back in detail, but one table only goes back 50 yrs, the other goes back further.
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